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In Reply to: Re: i have an completly different approche to them... posted by njjohn on November 11, 2002 at 16:16:05:
...how good can a film be?Unless it's intended purely entertainment, I can't imagine not wanting to see a good film more than once. Great films are like the best music and literature: you appreciate and discover more upon subsequent viewings - if not, I question if there was enough content to start with.
The films don't change, but *you* do - what you bring to it i.e. knowledge, experience etc. I've seen Renoir's "Rules of the Game" probably 15-20 times - I get much more out of it now than I did when I was 18, but believe me, even as a teenager I knew I was watching a masterpiece...I simply didn't understand cinematic language or history or life as well as I do now.
The great films don't diminish with repeat viewings. That's why they're masterpieces.
Follow Ups:
One more thing I would want to add, in an masterpiece, nobody can catch all the details on first viewing.
All the rest of your missive is perfectly weel put.
ok, name a masterpiece i would have to see more than once?i saw 'existenz' a few times because i didn't quite get it, but now that i've goten it, i don't need to see it again, although i get a little tempted.
i saw most of memento 2x because the dvd player stopped dead in the middle of the first viewing.
i saw 'pather pachelli' a few times and i do plan to see it again. but i might be close to maxing out.
and i saw 'miracle in milan' 2x, and variety lights 2x because i enjoyed them.
but there is really a very low limit, usually one, to how many times i will see a film.
for example, i recently saw that very nice italian flick about the boy obsessed with the woman in the town. i learned the lesson it had to offer in one viewing and that's that.
if i see a film more than once in a short span of time, i'm going to get bored with it.
i pray i don't have to see 'seven samauri' ever again. i saw it two times, a great film that i never, never, ever, want to see again !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :)
...you aren't really a film lover. Maybe you like to watch for diversion, but you don't seem to take much pleasure in the form.Or..maybe you're a genius who sees at a glance everything a film has to offer: direction, acting, editing, art direction, script, cinematography, lighting etc. and understands all of it instantly. Lucky you. It takes me longer to "see" everything. Sometimes I like to see it again, if it's well done, because a good film *does* give me pleasure...more than once.
Some masterpieces to see more than once:
Rules Of the Game
Grand Illusion
L'atalante
Battleship Potemkin
Alexander Nevsky
Citizen Kane
Swing Time
Chunking Express
Europa. Europa
Wings of Desire
Taxi Driver
Goodfellas
Raging Bull
Blue Velvet
Once Were Warriors
The Conversation
Some Like It Hot
The Searchers
My Darling Clementine
The Treaure of Sierre Madre
The Dawn Patrol
The Grifters
Lawrence of Arabia
The Red Shoes
The Third Man
The Draughtman's Contract
Don't Look Now
Performance
Amores Peros
Heavenly Creatures
Sunrise
M
Tokyo Story
The Gold Rush
Modern Times
The General
Sherlock Junior
etc.etc.etc. This is just off the top of my head at work.
Once Upon a Time in America
Masterpices:Vertigo
The 39 Steps
The Lady Eve
Sullivan's Travels
The Passion Of Joan of Arc
Beauty & The Beast (Cocteau, sorry Victor)
Distant Voices Still Lives
Singin' In The Rain
Three Colors Trilogy
Dekalog
Andrei Roublev
Jou Dou
A Taste Of Cherry
Fanny & Alexander
8 1/2
Seven Samurai
L'Age d'or
Black Narcissus
Blood of the Poet
Rear Window
The Sweet Herafter
The Player
Raise the Red Lantern
The Circus
City Lights
Great Expectations (Lean)
Apocalypse Now (tho it's kind of a mess)I should put Godfathers I & II, but I like The Conversation better and I've seen the Godfathers a little too often lately (disproving the rule, lol?)
Near Masterpices:
Vincent & Theo
North by Northwest (father of the modern blockbuster???)
Performance
Chinatown
An Angel At My Table
Innocent
Red River
High Noon
Kind Hearts & Coronets
Kiss Me Deadly
The Maltese Falcon
The Dead
Solaris
Dr. Strangelove
It Happened One Night
King Kong
Hotel du Nord
Nosferatu
Blow Up
Faces
In the Mood For Love
Duck Soup
Out of the Past
Raise the Red Lantern
Bride Of Frankenstein
Holiday
Children of the Paradise
Bicycle Thieves...and still there/s more...but not tonight, from memory...
So many movies, so little time.
Actually, if we were putting such lists together, then Cocteau would be the least of our disagreements. But I would be fighting hard to move several films between the categories. No way I would agree to keep the Bicycle Thief in the second category while putting Vertigo in the top one. But yes, we all have our unique tastes.However, you included Blow Up - a good and solid film, to be sure, but certainly not at the level of Antonioni's best film in my view - the 1975 "Professione: reporter"...
All in all, I actually love lists like this, they bring so much back...
Vertigo, one of the few REALLY erotic & obsessive film-EVER-
Blow UP was a film with his time-long dead-
Beauty do not care of the passing modes.
Beauty is for ever.
Money or for ever fame - that is the only choice of the real artist in an given " oeuvre "
P.
this trilogies, did want to be cult films, they try hard.
They are not ..never will be...They lack totally of any thing you could call profund...
They are like designer wines.
...each one of them could compete on its own merits with the vast majority of films made in the past twenty years. Of the three the Blue would probably be my favorite.
Blue, is my favorit too, but still more surface than real deepness.
I look at it three times ( the first vision did impress me ) but in my eye, it did not stand the more.
IS definitively one...underated, certainly.... It is a legacy from J.Huston.
One of the few very best.
thanks for the list. i'll have to check them out.i'm into films. i love films. but i'm into other stuff too.
i'm not into the details you mentioned, but that does not mean anyone who is, can appreciate a film more than i can.
any type of expertise does not make your aesthetic sense any better than one not oriented that way. (it wasn't a forest ranger who wrote the poem, 'trees').
what's the big deal to claim that i can watch a film and 'get it' in one viewing? and move on to the next film.
you pain in the necks should be banished to watch french films for a week. that's sufficient punishment. :)
(just kidding about you being pains in the neck, but not kidding about watching french films as a real punishment!!)
I like French films! :-) And I enjoy being a pain in the neck! (Your neck, anyway.)It's only movies...forgive me if I doubt you get it *all* in one viewing. Just enjoy what you do watch...once.
in regards to the debate, another inmate made a good reference to a Latin Proverb:e gustibus non est disputandum ,
"over tastes one may not argue."Maybe one taste is all he needs to get the flavor:o)
mp
Of course, there is somthing like good taste AND bad taste.
argue with someone over why they like or don't like something...to each his own. I know the rules are different on forum boards...I view these as healthy debates. I think the French have an appropriate saying as well, Viva la differance!:o)
mp
Yes, vive la difference, but there is agood taste and a bad one.
In every field of life, be it wine & litterature & film...
Or how would you argue with someone who would rave on The Blood Beast part eleven ?
Education is the key word. An then on this level...Vive la difference.
But not on the level of $2,50 for a bottle of red wine...
I hope I made my case clear.
Patrick
...a l´Espagne!And it´s not a vin ordinaire: a more than decent red wine from Valdepeñas, or Cariñena, with good body, nice flavours, and a pleasant bouquet starts at 2,20 Euros. They are not cheap, just inexpensive...
Regards
BF
Well, in this world with the" over speed communication " every one knows the price ( the maximum ) of his product, and to have an bottle of wine for 2 Eu would be a little wonder.
The good spanish one start here in germany with 40 Eu.
Now is what you do understand on " good wine ". Country wines without pretention, in France you can have them for 10 Eu.
But you and me knows what good wines really cost...Is it not ?
And the whole point of the discussion, was something else....
There, you can make your point if you do not agree....
Is there a good taste or not, AND can we argue about it....Amitiés,
Patrick
I can choose a few bottles (let´s say six) of different decent red wines, prices ranging from less than 3 Euros, to let´s say 50 Euros, strip them from any label, print a number on each one, and send them to you.A list with the original labels, and the corresponding number assigned to each bottle will be kept under custody by a Notary.
Once you receive them, let them rest quiet in a cool place for 2 weeks, before opening them. Then you must go on and test them to your best, and qualify them under any terms you prefer. Once you´ve found your ranking, and after evaluating them against the best you can find for 50 Euros, you can e-mail the results to me, and then the Notary will send you that list, including prices for each one.
If, for less than 20% over the price of the bottle you find the best in this batch, you are able to find something better, or equally good, I´ll send you six more bottles of the one you have chosen as the best.
If you are able to sort them by price, making no more than 2 mistakes, then you´ll have a new batch, with my compliments.
If you make more than two mistakes, then you´ll pay twice the price of those bottles, plus shipping costs, and I´ll drink a similar batch, à la votre sautè.
Deal?
Regards
BF
But one with at lest 50 % chance to win...
Remember what was the starting of the subjet ?
I said the big difference of a 2 Eu against an 50 bottle of wine.
So here is mine :
Three bottles for 2.50 against three bottles for 40-50.
All the rest o your proposition I agree.
And I must be right in 100% in any case.
Bet ?
My point was that there are more than decent wines in the low price range: I put 2,20 Euros as a starting point to drink something enjoyable; but I never said that it would be equal, less better, than a wine 20 times that price (well, that might happen, too; but that wasn´t my point)With that I meant that you don´t need to go for the big ones, to find differences, hues in quality. Applying this to cinema, there are the great movies, like Kane, The Magnificent Ambersons, The Quiet Man, Intolerance, The Dead,..., which are clearly head and shoulders above the others; then, there are poor movies which, no matter who their author is, or how much they have spent at making them, will never qualify as good; while there are other films which, at a small cost, or without any pretensions for greatness, are excellent: the first to come to my mind is "Une Histoire Immortelle", a small (45 minutes length, just 4 actors, almost no action, and inexpensive in its production) crepuscular film by O. Welles, with himself and Jeanne Moreau as the only well-known stars, which is simply wonderful!
Back to red wines, what I said was that it would be difficult, even for anybody who has sipped many good ones, to range a bunch of bottles by their intrinsic quality (bouquet, flavour, aftertaste, smoothness, color, body...) and then guess their respective prices: more expensive not always means better.
That said, I wouldn´t find wise to argue that a wine costing twenty times more than another one would be worse than the least expensive.
You ask for at least 50% possibilities? Then, just flip a coin!
Anyhow, if you want to taste some bottles of decent, amazingly inexpensive, pretty underrated Spanish wines, just ask for them! I´ll be glad to choose a few for you, and send them to you, with their labels on: you´ll just pay the freight expenses, and sharing your opinion about them.
Are you interested?
Regards
BF
for 2.20, enjoyable ? I wish you may be right..But...Anyway what maybe for you, may not for me, or vice verca...
Quiet Man, a great film ? As much I love J. Ford, I do not think that it is an great film...More an macho and sadistic one...Wicht part of it are enjoyable when not boring...The place is beautiful and I was there on hollidays...
Well, I think actually that wine selling is more of an marketing thing, and that in this aspect you can AND you cannot compare them both...Like artistry and commercialism in the two cited.
En bref, in the real world you will it find hard work , to seek after good and cheap ( in the term of not expensive ) wines & films..
You may try to play toto & loto...
More expensive means generally better...And that is true for most of buyable things-Yes it is !
But again, of course, you can find "L´exception a la régle "...And yes, I would take your offer with pleasure, as getting old, do not automatiquely means ...getting insensible & bored...
BUT- I would pretend to have the oblication to send you some wines of the Rhines region, witch I relatively cherish and some of the more likable ( for me ) from Elsace...Deal done ?
E-mail me your address, and give me a few days for choosing them.Regards
BF
And don't worry about the notary or the list...
Victor the problem is the increase of price and quality in small steps..The chance to find out lay at less than 30 %...It is very difficult....
But i know you...You just want to drink all the good wine...
Cheers & santé !
***But i know you...You just want to drink all the good wine...He-he.... you got me! That was the whole idea. Never miss the chance of free drink.
...it would help a lot. And I´d include a small man-slicing device, no pedigree, but who knows?: North African origin, curved, inside a metallic scabbard, with four semiprecious stones, three in the scabbard, one in the hilt... Man, I´m looking at it now, and it looks like something, with all that engraving, both in the hilt, and in the scabbard! I have found it at the bottom of a drawer, and I remember having bought it, with some ivory pieces, and a decent sized geode, from a friend, some twenty years ago. Patina is somewhat thick, as it may well have developed on it for one century...I have no pictures, but I sure can get some, if you are interested.
Remember, bottles will have no label, nothing to identify them. And maybe I´m not paranoiac at thinking that US customs would put them under a strong magnifying glass, before allowing them to come in.
Let me know.
Regards
BF
I was of course was joking - I would not want to abuse the generocity of a wine lover. I do have good appreciation of good wine, and some experience in that area, but I am by no means an expert.I also see a process issue with the test as described by you. At least in my case, when I don't have a well-established absolute scale, just a semblance of it, I would do much better if all bottles were open and available at the same time. Given the potentially good nature of the wines involved and the absence of nitrogen displacement system in my home, that would represent a huge waste of good material, as, say, six bottles in a couple of days is well above my normal load. I have similar issue in audio, with my long term memory being good, but not good enough for rock solid comparissons, so I usually try to shoot for the side-by-side tests.
I think where I am today with respect to wine is that I know good one when I try it, and this is similar to the point about the movies that Patrick and I were making - knowledge that comes through experience and education. A true expert of course can taste hundreds of wines in one day and put them in a row... however God knows how reliable such gradation would be. Have there been comparissons done with several experts rating the same hundred of wines?
Even with the imperfections in the proposed test, I would see it as fun enough undertaking with six samples or so. I would, however, like to know the possible monetary penalty implications before commiting to it. If there is going to be a bottle of Chateau Lafite 1961 included in the batch, then I am out - I already have two mortgages on my home.
Shipping and customs-wise, I would not remove the labels. You could rely on my honesty in covering them right away with duct tape or brown paper. I am not good at telling the wine by its cork.
Regarding the deadly slicer, I would be happy to take my chances and cover the shipping cost. Shipping such stuff overseas is trivial, we do it all the time, as long as the customs form says Antique/Collectable dagger or something close it is free of duties. That ia generally speaking, of course. I don't recall receiving stuff from Spain, but Italy, Germany, France, England, Austria have not been a problem.
I´d rather choose it, as the whole lot won´t be more than 10 or 12 kilos, and their rates on that service, for such a small weight, will be very close to one on their Blue (snail) service: 48 hours, and they´ll be at home! And they´ll care for Customs dispatch, too.If you agree, e-mail me your UPS account number, and give me a few days to choose some stuff. Don´t worry about prices: I won´t be including any Vega Sicilia in the lot.
Regards
BF
E-mailed, please let me know if you received it.
It´ll take a few days. I´ll contact you by next Thursday.Regards
BF
So will " La Grande Armada " of wines find the way to you, Victor...
I am able to compare about six to eight wines ( when drinking them..)
After that ...trouble start....
and some things are in good taste....subjective to individuals....but there is common consensus.My neighbor has a sofa on a magenta kidney bean shaped shag carpet...He thinks it looks VERY chic and metropolitan. I find it to be extremely gaudy.
mp
A person has an absolute right to like anything he wants. However, if he were to include that sofa in the best design competition he would be laughed at, I presume. We DO have standards in any field, sometimes more than one set of standards, and therefore Friday the 13th would not be considered next to Amarcord by anyone with knowledge in that field.
people like different things, there really is NO universal standards.
Look how particular you are about films as opposed to another forum member...you both can define yourselves as educated movie lovers...I really don't know what we are debating. I was simply pointing out the obvious fact that people view movies in different ways.
I don't like very dark asian decor...asians would not find it as tasteless as I do. It is not to my taste. I am not missing the point....you and patrick are implying that education leads to universal standards of taste...I don't buy that. I am entitled to my opinion too.
mp
***you and patrick are implying that education leads to universal standards of taste...Not in the least universal, and I mentioned the existance of several, or many sets of standards.
However, not liking Brahms while understanding his place in the Universe is one thing, claiming that Michael Jackson is the second Mozart is another. Many thngs do come with the semblance of absolute values attached.
So I do not have ANY problem with your not liking the Asian decor - and I don't like it either. But I can see the development and art behind it, even if it is not MY art. I would never say it is ugly, just that it is not my taste.
But some ugly furniture shall remain ugly, regardless of its root.
In my boilling pot....
She will then be of the prettiest pink- Like an homard -
She will win.
***Education is the key word. An then on this level...Vive la difference.
But not on the level of $2,50 for a bottle of red wine...
I hope I made my case clear.Perfectly. And I agree with you. In EVERY field education is fundamental, and is the only foundation upon which the taste can be developed.
How's my French? (Courtesy of Altavista)
Did you write inf rench and Altavistass in english?
Or was this lost title word your home work ?
Try harder, next time around...
Avec amitie....
I tried it both ways. I started with the word Absolutely and it gave me Absolument. Then I did it backwards, and got Absolutely.I have to tell you that intuitively it didn't sound right to me. What does it mean exactly in French?
No, just jocking ! And one more misunderstanding, I meant that you only wrote ONE word...Witch is not to much....
Try harder & more.
Potemkin and Nevsky, but no Ivan the Terrible? The first two I must have seen few dozen times each when growing up, the Ivan was not too popular with the Party bosses.But I don't really think the Goodfellas or Grifters are quite of the same caliber... I know, I know, until I have seen them twenty times...
Don't Look Now is an interesting, moody film.
Yep, many good ones on your list.
I was typing at work and completely forgot Ivan the Terrible, but I've only seen it twice, and not for a long time. I feel worse about leaving out Andrei Rublev, although I think I've only seen it twice.I think Goodfellas is one of Scorse's best, for reasons I don't have time to go into here. While I love The Grifters, it's probably just a great little thriller, not a "masterpiece", but it makes a nice companion piece to Goodfellas - two different takes on the American Dream and American greed.
Oops...I just realized I misspelled "L'Atalante" - darn bifocals.
...Zero for Conduct? I don't think it was anywhere near the L'Atalante. Jean Vigo, dead at 29... such a shame.Ivan - I am sure you noticed just how different the second part was from the first. Looks like two different directors, so much time and growing up in between.
Of those three works I always considered Nevsky the minor work, even though I love certain parts of it. It drips with propaganda.
Speaking of Nevsky - did you notice the imperfection in the editing? In the battle scene Alexander constantly changes his armor, every five seconds, back and forth. Now it's this helmet, not it is that, now it is back to the other one. Obviously scene reshot without regard to details.
technically perfect as one can get....I'm always amazed and impressed with this scene....They are entering the club as a foursome and the scene is them walking into this nightclub and they have to walk through hallways and corridors, people are coming in every direction delivering food and drink....the scene is UNCUT and keeps going and going...it is mezmerizing if you pay attention.
I didn't notice it the first time around.I also thought Stones acting in Casino was top drawer, surprizing. I think it is a fine film too. I find it almost as good as Goodfellas. The soundtracks for both are also great.
mp
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