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Mates,In the last few days, there have been quite a number of posts concerning male lead actors old and new- Ford, Clooney, Tracy, Cruise, Costner, and I even had a little conversation with Clark about Wayne.
So, my troll for today is to ask you who in the movies past and present represent postitive male role models- men who you or you think others look to as the "real men?
And, what is it about your choices that you find influential, inspiring, or memorable? Are these attributes due to their real-life personality or mainly the characters they typically portray? Are these actors popular because they appeal to women or to men or both? Good with violence or sensitive souls?
A few names for consideration: Valentino, Fairbanks, Cheney, Chaplin, Gable, Mix, Grant, Gabin, Flynn, Powell, Holden, Cooper, Wayne, Stewart, Bogart, Douglas, Heston, Niven, Hope, Laughton, Brando, Mifune, Quinn, McQueen, Redford, Allen, Connery, dePardieu, Kinksi, Beatty, Sheen, Hoffman, deNiro, Cruise, Costner, Ford, Willis, Martin, Hanks, Grant, Irons, Nicholson, Carrey, Damon, Pitt, Meyers, Depp, Clooney.
Those in a bad mood are also very welcome to rant about the male leads that they find really annoying and present negative images.
Now, I'm off to write a poem about AK-47s.
Cheers,
Bambi B
PS: Patrick and Victor, I expect to read at least two names I've never seen before!
Follow Ups:
Joel McCrea?
Randolph Scott?
Yul Brynner?
Bill Travers?
Christopher Lee? (still around but his peak was in the 50s and 60s)
Robert Taylor?
Alan Hale, Sr.?
James Coburn?
Ward Bond?
Gregory Peck?
Richard Boone?
danj,A good list. We lose sight today of how popular some of these stars were. Robert Taylor was an A-movie star for 25 years. Joel McCrea, too- and I really enjoy "Sullivan's Travels." Yul Brenner of course must have been in 100 films.
Homage: In "Blazing Saddles" when the name "Randolph Scott" was mentioned, there is a Heavenly fanfare and all the characters bow there heads in reverence!
Cheers,
Bambi B
All are/were capable of playing diverse rolls. No "sissy" parts or girlie-boy personas.
n
albee,I am a secret fan of Marvin especially in "Dirty Dozen" and I seem to end up liking his portrayals more than I "should": even when he's being an obnoxious complete berk, there's humour to it- he makes you trust his methods. His characters, though not a very large range, seem solid and consistent and he seems to never have taken roles that he couldn't pull off.
Contrast and compare- Lee Marvin and James Coburn- I seem to pair these two in my mind- Coburn the slightly more "downtown" guy.
Hey, where is Bruce Willis- he can fire two M16 and kill 20 while making a rolling dive for cover..
Cheers,Bambi B
...nobody has mentioned Ronald Reagan...Why so?
Regards
BF
orejones,Did you know that Ronald Reagan was also credited under the name "Elvis Reagan"- doesn't that form some powerful images quickly?
Reagan is listed as having been in 60 movies- that's quite a career given he went to TV in the 50's and then political life in the early 60's. I always imagine he was easy to work with- non-temperamental, made friends in the front office well, and therefore did well under the old studio contract system.
While a Democrat and actor, he was prez of the SAG, which he seemed proud of, though I've never heard anything about his tenure in that position. Have you? His attitude towards unions made a serious shift later on and it would be interesting to see how that corresponds to his other political evolutions.
I never found his movie roles to be objectionable, but at the same time, not terribly memorable, a bit flat in the affect, and not truly passionate. He always seemed too amiable and quiet to successfully play the tough guy or soldier/leader type.
Waht a strange two-tiered life he had! But this is the point at which a discussion of Reagan would have to shift from Films to Outside..
Cheers,
Bambi B
x
He walked and talked softly, but carried a big stick.
TS,I'm glad you brought up Fonda, and characterize so well and succintly.
He was never glamourous but always exuded that quiet confidence and thoughtfulness. "Grapes of Wrath" is amazing in the way he gradually builds his anger, but instead of futile lashing out, sees the bigger picture and turns it to reform.
Cheers,
Bambi B
Fonda was good, in a less sucessful film like " The Wrong Man " I thought of his performance as a psychological well built acting.
He could silently funny in comedies too, I remember vividly and with joy at his " ladys Eve ".
One of a hell of a screw ball film.
patrick,More good examples. "The Wrong Man" is one of those movies that amazes me as it it is such a real stream of events and so quietly done. It was rare in America for a subtle mystery like that- no violence, not even violent emotion, just that sense of the fragility of everyday life- the vulnerability we face in a complex, anonymous world. As you say, the building of his angst was great while he wandered along, bewildered at his bad luck.
The detectives/police characters too are brilliantly sympathetic- real, just doing their jobs, and are not brutal, two dimensional characters sadistically persecuting someone. [When was there last an American police movie that didn't have a subplot of the "super cop" rebelling aginst his boss in order to get at the truth -his way?]
"The Lady Eve" is a brilliantly goofy story and the closest Fonda is to being in a fantasy, but again he is so wonderfully understated as the harassed playboy snake and Stanwyck does about her best work.
Two others of Fonda I like: "12 angry Men" -the man of principle and defender of justice
Possibly my favourite of all his movies, is Fonda in "My Darling Clementine"- one of the best westerns I know. There's no one I'd rather ride the duty trails with than Fonda's Earp chcaracter! Again, Fonda as a man of justice.
Salut,
Bam
And yes in " my Darling ..." he was but charming.
The 12 was a " tour de force " and one of my favorite " summer " films.
We speak the same language derived from the same feeling and understanding.
Me short.
You long.
Patrick,C'est l'ame du poet pour dire le monde dans peu de mots, la tragedie du mecanicien pour parler en gros livres.
Salut,
Bam
I know, and always loved the writing of Guy de Maupassant for his concision.
So Bach for his music.
Salut mon ami Poetomecanicien.Patrick
Gene Hackman in "Mississippi Burning"...Redford in "Jeremiah Johnson"...
Paul Belmondo (you can choose which film you liked most, there are a few: "La Scoumoune" is my fav, but there are more)...
Lino Ventura...
Max von Sydow...
And let´s throw some Paul Newman in, just for good measure...oh well, and what about some Marcello (Mastroianni)...? And that guy Chaz Palminteri (Bullets over Broadway, A Bronx Story...) will do, too. And Gabriel Byrne does a good job in "Miller´s Crossing", too...
Regards
BF
I liked your choices, and would add: Sean Penn, Peter Sellers, Clint Eastwood [in various roles], Alec Guiness, Ralph Finnes and Tim Robbins [if Susan S. likes him....:)].A couple of my least favs: Gov. Arnold, B. Willis, I would include most of Sly Stallone's work as well.
Later
D
From all them I will only retain Max v. Sydow and I bit my lips about forgetting him, this man is so powerful, no wonder he is I.B. player.
Hackman brings always something with him but he remains mostly in the " supportindg " actor.
Lino ventura was a hell of a guy and a good actor...Patrick
orejones,I have always liked Gene Hackman when ever he appears- there's some kind of projected energy that I like. It's difficult to explain, but you just know that anyone around him isn't getting away with anything- he sees through it.
The actor I somehow pair with Hackman- probably because he is also under appreciated is Robert Duvall- the introverted side.
Marcello too is wonderful and always seem to be on the verge of boiling over into humour. I saw "Intervista" recently and the scenes of his and Fellini's the visit to Anita Eckberg's is a high point.
Max von Sydow in "Seventh Seal"- the best "death" movie. His world weary, iconic knight is just brilliant. Strength in retention.
Cheers,
Bambi B
Max saves this ambitious but ultimately disapointing film.
Mastroianni; Gassman (Vittorio); Liam Neeson, esp. in "Rob Roy."
If we ignore a couple of real dreadful films: The Avengers, and to a less stinky degree Maid in Manhatten then this actor is one of my favorites.Ever since his Amon Goeth in Schindler's List I've kept an eye out for him. Sunshine, English Patient, Strange Days and his brilliant and mostly unseen role in Oscar and Lucinda, End of the Affiar, Spider, Red Dragon(needed a better director), Quiz Show, Emile Bonte's Whuthering Heights.
Ben Kingsley Because he seems to EVERYTHING and dissapears into everything he does. He is not only a brilliant actor but a fine person(ditto for Ralph - it's Rafe actually - Fiennes). His Mr. Ford in the Merry Wives of Windsor was hilarious. Ghandi, Itzhak Stern - even his small turns in DAVE steal scenes.
Since I'm on the cast of Schindler's List - may as well add Liam Neeson. A tower of strength.
You wanted different names there you go.
n
Boy, what a bad film.
I could easily see Vic "the Menk" wearing those getups around the Dacha.
With nothing underneath?
nt
Anybody brave or crazy enough to play the roles Ruebens is a real man! (Yeah, I'm joking.)But, Peter Coyote always comes through as the real thing. He was sublimely evil in Polanski's "Bitter Moon".
Let's not forget Terrence Stamp. A man who had to lose most of his hair for his career to really blossom.
albee33,Paul Ruebens is one of those actors- ("Barney", "Ernest" and Chevy Chase are others) whose career I could never understand. His Pee-wee character- (even the name has some kind of fetishist/molester quality (think of "pee-pee" and "wee-wee") just can't appeal to children. Rather than the wide-eyed innocence and enthusiasm he thinks he projecting, there's a frightening, slimy insanity about it- his style of fantasy is more nightmare and hallucination. And any adult will probably just watch him out of the corner of their eyes wondering how many watch lists he's on. Perhaps it's me, perhaps it's my general suspicion of the clown/ mask idiom, I'm not anywhere near his frequency- and this gives me hope.
Coyote and esp. Stamp - excellent! Stamp was absolutely brilliant as the jaded, forlorn transsexual in "Adventures of Priscilla". His was the character with the strongest real sense of a past- his tragedies were so deep and in retention, yet informed-powered the outer personality. This sympathetic quality was so powerful it was easy to cheer Stamp finding love with the bus mechanic- now there's acting!
Cheers,
Bambi B
Rubens' TV program was amazingly creative and fun. I think the rest of his negative image is unfortunate and symtomatic of the way many people in our society respond to anyone who 'strays too far' from the acceptable MOR mediocrity that defines much of the personalities in current pop culture.Coyote is simply brilliant.
Later
D
tough guy, without resorting to rudeness or boorishness (his character preferred Mozart and was an avid cook); and Richard Burton in "The Spy Who Came in from the Cold," was hard, ruthless, but feeling.
Kirk Douglas, though I'm not much of a fan, was also "a man" in "Paths of Glory," and "Spartacus."
Lastly, Nicholson in "Chinatown" was brave AND humorous; in "The Passenger," he was resolute for its sake alone---the perfect solution for modern man.
***in "The Passenger," he was resolute for its sake aloneResolute? I thought he was lost and without any clear aim.
complete the gun deals. This is Camus's absurdness carried to perfection: in the "Myth of Sisyphyus," Albert posits that life is absurd, but, like the mythical creature, we must continue on to show our nobility and indominability.
.
I grow with this one..It was my Bible.For years to come.
NT
tinear,I'm glad you brought up Kirk Douglas' "Paths of Glory" which along with "Grand Illusion" are two of my favourite war movies,*** There were also ouststanding supporting roles among the accused soldiers (Joe Turkel with the goatee) as and the Adloph Menjou and Macready characters were finely wrought and not cartoon bully bureaucrats.
Douglas' bravery, integrity, and compassion while maintaining his job as a loyal professional soldier in time of war are inspiring to me for a long time. Not that I am a warrior literally, but as in "Seven Samurai" I am always pleased to see the depiction of honourable people that maintain their principles in the face of stupidity. The "noble warrior"- is a metaphor for the larger issue of personal integrity and honesty- we are all made fighters on some level to maintain and progress individually. Would that this existed in public life today.
The final scene in which the soldiers taunt and jeer the shy German barmaid, but melt into empathy when the faceless enemy becomes another human and they try and sing along with her plaintive German song is one of the finest war scenes I can remember- more powerful than body parts flying into the lens.
I would contrast Douglas in "Paths" to Guiness in "Brige on the River Kwai" in which good intentions are thwarted into absurdity. Guiness' integrity backfires through his corrupted warrior image.
The success of "Paths" is not as a strident antiwar movie- though I come away from it reinforced in my opinion that WWI in particular was the stupidest waste mankind has ever contrived- but that war pentrates up and down to every level - there are the gung-ho politicians safe in ttheir offices posturing as patriots and ordering massive death by remote control, the generals eager to serve military "code", soldiers who suffer denied their individuality, and in the end we see them all as individual fodder to history.
Cheers,
Bambi B
***Also:Apocalypse Now (the original, not "Redux") the "pure warrior" in thought and action; Brando and Sheen as operating in only slightly differnt ways, but one is a hero, the other a criminal
All Quiet on the Western Front- techniques of "selling" wars to those who will die in them
MASH- "You're goin' to see some stitchin' like ya never saw before"
The Great Escape- just too entertaining! Cburn the only serious miscasting
"Stalag 17" -the dynamics of waiting
Empire of the Sun- how would I have done in the boys situation? (Just plunked down on the curb and wonder if the occupiers would accept VISA?)
The Train- Lancaster and the dilemna of choosing your cause worth killing and dying for- paintings anyone"
He of course plays the bartender in Kubrick's "The Shining".
"spot." I've always thought that I'd live in a bar if I could find a bartender that...personable.
Bronson
nt
I think Dmitry watched "17 Moments of Spring" more times than he... ah, never mind, just say many times.So this is my answer to the unknown lead men parts - easy as shooting fish in the barrel, so doesn't really count.
But as far as the actor I see fit the role of what a real man should be, I agree with Rico - Gregory Peck would be as close to it as anybody else.
Bogie is not, as I said before, his "reality" factor is very low.
Being like Cary Grant? All you need is a pound of grease in your hair and some body tone. He is a good actor, but such a Barbie!
Irons is very high up there too, just a notch below Peck.
Victor,Yes, I would put Peck at or near the top of my list- he was always in roles that were principled ("Mockingbird"), intelligent, resourceful, compassionate, a little world weary ("Command Decision") and always with just enough self-doubt ("Gray Flannel Suit") that we could see his character could learn and grow.
I am only a medium fan of Bogart as he is so detached. Aside: I am always amazed at the number of people that consider "Casablanca" the greatest film ever made- it is such a contrived, cartoonish pro-war statement it may as well have been a Marvel "graphic novel".
Cary Grant, I like quite a lot- his portrayals have good humour and appropriate level of self-parody, but you're right that he is not often in roles with a traditional "real man" edge. "Suspicion" shows him as weak, immature and without purpose. in "Philadephia Story" he may win back Hepburn, but he she is certainly the stronger. "bringing Up Baby" he just an amiable, lovable nerd and Hepburn agian has to take charge to make anyything happen. On the other hand, he did get things done in "Notorious" and "To Catch a Thief", and had that great comic bluster in "His Girl Friday". But he certainly doesn't seem to be operating anywhere near the kind of solid inner core of Peck.
Irons is someone who's often seems a bit inscrutable, the ordinary fellow, an observer, plunging into intense situations and engaging them. This is a powerful technique I think. One of the things that I like Irons in most of all was an early one, the Granada serialisation of "Brideshead Revisited" where he is amazing as the not too self-possessed middle class young man caught in the charming web of the English upper class. Boy, did I see that exact type at Cambridge- (and it happened to me too!)- but Irons did it better than the real guys.
Now, about this fellow Tikhonov...?
Cheers,
Bam
You'd get his name off the list pronto. Almost pathologically thin.
Must be the cocain...
Dmitry,Yes, there were a few bath scenes and he gets busy with Diana Quick on the Queen Mary in "Brideshead Revisited".
I can see him on the poster now, "Men have eating disorders too!"
Is he the coke head? I've never heard that.
Cheers,
Bam
He also readily shows parts of his body in Damage.
Largely agree.In my view the Real Man is not a perfect one, but the one who could indeed be a real person. That's where Bogart falls out.
Ditto for Eastwood and the whole slew of other "idealists".
So I would be talking about a real life man who nonetheless does show the strenght and character that are while not too common, are still possible and admired.
That is why I mentioned Tikhonov as an obscure actor with those qualities. In many ways he is not too different from Peck, as he is never perfect, but he is a good human with good aspirations in most of his roles.
To me this is far more "real" than being able to shoot ten people with five bullets... having just watched Fistfull of Dollars last night... he-he...
This also presents an interesting question about someone like Gabin.
He is a contraversial choice in my mind, as he borders on that "larger than life" image, while still remaining extremely approachable.
My list. In no particuliar order.Charles Laughton, Sir alec Guiness, Phillipe Noiret, George Sanders ( this one was Russian) Sexy Rexi, Jack Benny, Michel Simon, Orson Wells, Robert Stack,Anthony Hopkins, Vincent Price, Sir Cecil Aubry, Paul Henried, Sir John Gielgud, Anthony Quinn, Claude Rains, Joseph Schildkraut, Peter o´Toole, Jeremy Notham ( I love this guy ) Ronald ColmanFinney, Olivier, Raimu, Bourvil, Louis Jouvet, Sacha Guitry ( another Russian ) and of course, the aristocrat and one of the best Pierre Fresnay...
You see, dear Bambi I tried to stay mainstream, and this list is in no way exaustive...
There are just a few from the one I always would meet for pleasure..and that is all what it is about.PS: C. Grant said, I tried all my life to be likeC. Grant.
nt
In Grand Illusion, yes. In Sunset Boulevard, no
He was a very self-assured actor/director.AuPh
Mine are role specific:1. Gregory Peck in "To Kill a Mockingbird"
2. Bogie in "Casablanca"
3. Steve McQueen in "Bullitt"
4. Marlin Brando in "On the Waterfront"
5. Marlin Brando in "The Godfather"
He beat the living crap out of the bad guy at the end, after being beaten into a near pulp himself... isn't that the real manhood feat?Bogie was as real as Donald Duck - a caricature... there are no men like that.
Very, very macho Rico, your choice....
... exactly who the "Real Men" are or were in hollywood, or anywhere else for that matter (partly because the only absolute basis for a determination of manhood might be the presence of natural gonads..?). But, if I were forced to be a real man and give a brisk, off-the-cuff opinion? I'd say that that a "Real Man" is one who does exactly as he wants, and who wants according to what he is. Therefore, Popeye The Sailor is the only man among the hollywood crowd who qualifies...
vocalion,My question concerns those character attributes that the movies present as "male"- and whether you see these as positive influences- or contrived, stereotypes, etc. Complicated as hell, but I think not silly in light of modern movies.
The lines get blurred as we're seeing a lot more women action heroes- "Lara Croft", "Crouching Tiger/Hidden Dragon", Linda Hamilton in the "Terminator" franchise, as these characters are not possessors of the "natural gonads" but are co-opting traditionally male roles and could all be interchanged with men in those roles.
Popeye: "I yam what I yam" is as good a criterium as any I can think of! The idea of being true to one's nature through self knowledge- seems to me the first principle of success as a human.
Cartoon or no, Popeye was shown as honourable, truthful, and a protector of the weak and these stand high on my list of positive attributes for anyone.
Cheers,
Bambi B
... as a "Real Man". Have you ever seen that great old movie entitled "Dodsworth"? Huston, the leading man in this classic film stood up admirably to the forces of drastic changes in his life. And in particular to a real man's worst enemy - his wife! It takes real machismo to do this without inflicting physical damage upon the source of annoyance. Resilience is of prime importance! Speaking of which, I'm thinking of another of Huston's great roles in "Treasure Of The Sierra Madre". Can you imagine a better example of a real man? Wise, gritty, driven, sharp, strong, humorous, flexible, and last but not least - always hungry! Excuse me now, I gotta go get something to eat...
Dodsworth...a charming outaded film....But John father was a solid actor.
They are just a part of a mosaic, and that was the question...
... I did answer the question.
I did NOT miss it.
x
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