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In Reply to: Re: Private Ryan: some of it was very realistic posted by Estes on July 11, 1999 at 08:30:18:
***While you have a right to like or dislike a movie, I must disagree that it was all unrealistic.This is not what I said. Realism can be understood differently. If I show close up shots on guts and knife going through it then some will say "that is very realistic" and to some degree they will be right. I don't see it that way, however. To me that is just cheap manipulative approach that adds nothing to the art of movie making. We are talking about form of art here, aren't we?
My biggest problem with that "movie" is that it is not what it pretends to be - an honest portrayal of reality. It uses too cheap and tired teenager-type tools in order to achieve its effects. It is irritating and boring. And don't even mention that obsene ending scene.
***I went to the theatre with a WWII vet and he thought the Normandy landing was right on, including the bullets whizzing past. The dead bodies,
We are obviously looking for different things in that delicate media called "movies". I don't need many dead body mock-ups to get the feel of horror. I don't need gallons and barrels of red paint. I don't nesessarily need 140dB sound level. To me all that stuff cheapens the movie. There ARE more subtle and actually more effective tools.
***men getting killed all around you, etc.Men get killed all around you in the Friday the 13th.
I do, however, expect at least some artistic capabilities on part of someone claiming to be a "director". Spielberg has demonstrated very little in that regard.
***The rest you can take or leave.
That "the rest" is called movie. There is supposed to be something left after you remove the cheap effects. In case of Private Ryan there is very little, unfortunately. But sure, I CAN leave that movie.
***I suggest you find a vet and ask them what it was like, I think you will find that Private Ryan underplayed the horror.
You seem to be fixated on that horror element. I have already stated that I do not get impresed by red paint and display of artificial guts. I HAVE seen and experienced much more powerful tools and shall never forget that effect. For example, the three men dancing in Salo made me shiver with horror. Private Ryan? Ho-hum. Mediocre pretender.
Regards,
Victor.
Victor, the point I was trying to make was that the landing sequences had a "you are there" feel, so your statements that they are "fake" are off. Of course they are fake, that is why it is called a movie. You find such "vivid" protrays of violence disgusting, I agree, they are. But it did happen. There are a lot of people who say it was "not that bad" because they cannot believe that such things happen. I am not fixated on it, as you suggest. Rather it sounds like you think that others are not getting your point.As the other writers state, Speilberg makes (sometimes) decent hotdogs. Like most mainstream Hollywood directors, his idea of "art" is to use a sledgehammer rather than explosives. Hitchcock did more in movies by "suggesting" than Speilberg ever will by showing. So I agree there are more subtle tools, but not everyone gets subtle.
My favorite movie scene is in the Great Dictator where Chaplin uses the globe as a beach ball, until it bursts. Funny on the surface, but forboding underneath.
Sometimes I want to eat haute cuisine and sometimes all I want is a really good burger or hot dog. Spielberg occasionally makes very good hot dogs. I agree that the basic plot device used in "Ryan" was artificial and manipulative, and I think other directors would not have given Hanks the "why we are here" sermon or made him stop his troops from killing their German prisoner. But I found the Omaha beach sequence very effective at grabbing the viewer's attention. I think Spielberg also demands that his movies hammer home the point to the audience that this is what it takes to be the "good guys" (also in "Schindler's list"). He is not going to let the audience think about or question their morality (unlike Kurosawa, Stone, Pasolini, etc.).BTW, when I wrote that "Salo" was the most repulsive movie I had ever seen, I did not mean to imply that it was a bad movie (actually was hoping that my comment would lead others to seek it out), but that it was going to make the viewer extremely uncomfortable and make one question why viewing this horror holds a strange attraction/fascination. One thing is for sure, viewing "Salo" will affect and change you.
Speaking of uncomfortable, for those who haven't seen "Salo" yet, recall the scene in Schindler's list when the gun keeps jamming, preventing an execution. Multiply that by a dozen or so and that is what viewing "Salo" is like.
***Sometimes I want to eat haute cuisine and sometimes all I want is a really good burger or hot dog. Spielberg occasionally makes very good hot dogs.Yes, he is a very *professional* hot dog maker. The level of his crew's technical skills is tremendous.
I agree that the basic plot device used in "Ryan" was artificial and manipulative, and I think other directors would not have given Hanks the "why we are here" sermon or made him stop his troops from killing their German prisoner. But I found the Omaha beach sequence very effective at grabbing the viewer's attention. I think Spielberg also demands that his movies hammer home the point to the audience that this is what it takes to be the "good guys" (also in "Schindler's list"). He is not going to let the audience think about or question their morality (unlike Kurosawa, Stone, Pasolini, etc.).
That is a good point. However, I typically find that most US movie makers don't want the viewer to make that decision regarding the morality. They believe that the viewers must be told what's good or they shall deviate. Therefore you see the prolifiration of idiotic "summary" scenes, like the one at the Ryan's end (sorry, the other end).
Every onece in a while you want to see something that lets you think, not just cheer.
***BTW, when I wrote that "Salo" was the most repulsive movie I had ever seen, I did not mean to imply that it was a bad movie (actually was hoping that my comment would lead others to seek it out), but that it was going to make the viewer extremely uncomfortable and make one question why viewing this horror holds a strange attraction/fascination.
That was fairly clear, I thought.
***One thing is for sure, viewing "Salo" will affect and change you.
That is true too. I do find it hard to admit that I actually love that movie. Most folks would probably consider me a deviant for saying this. I also uderstand that it was specifically created to shock by someone with absolutely tremendous skills. And it works.
Regards,
Victor.
I rented this because Gene Siscal recommended it. But I'd forgotten he warned me there's a scene in there that's particularly shocking, especially to those who have small children. The film wasn't about what I thought it was about. I used to do trainspotting as a young lad living in a poor industrial part of England in the early Sixties. It wasn't about that. Great film, but I curse the director for doing that scene to me. It's part of me now. I can't forget it, I can't go back. I'm not used to real film. I was raised on hamburgers and hotdogs. You've made me curious about Salo, but I can't handle it. It's Adam's choice. I love my innocence, but curious about the taste of the apple.
Steve,Based on your advice, I went and rented the Glenn Gould movie. I am sorry to report that it irritated me from the first minute - the fake importance of him walking half mile over the snow. I didn't like that self promotion with a bit of music thrown in. I would never expect anybody trully great (say, Horowitz?) to make movie about HIMSELF.
We turned it OFF after about 20 minutes. Glenn Gould meets Glenn Gould was way too much for our senses. His attempt at philosophy was just too shallow. The character too small.
On a more positive note: the Bitter Harvest is quite interesting. Have you seen it?
Victor.
As you probably know Glenn Gould lived in Toronto, Ontario, Canada. My sister worked near where he lived and she would walk past him on the street. She described him as a short man who ALWAYS wore gloves, even in summer and mumbled to himself.
Sorry it was a big disappointment to you. BTW, Gould died in October of 1982 of a stroke. Colm Feore (recently seen in the Stephen King miniseries "Storm of the Century) played Gould in the film. If you hated this one, you'll probably also hate "The Red Violin" (same director: Francois Girard). Haven't seen "Bitter Harvest" so I'll have to check it out.
***Sorry it was a big disappointment to you. BTW, Gould died in October of 1982 of a stroke. Colm Feore (recently seen in the Stephen King miniseries "Storm of the Century) played Gould in the filmBummer. How do you say "caught with your pants down" in Russian?... Should have paid more attention. I just presumed and what do you know, presumptions are dangerous. You know, long day, tired, wife brings seven movies, put the first one on - it sucks, turn it off after twenty minutes, put the second one on - it sucks too, not kidding you, twenty more minutes, put Gould on, already bitter and tired. Cursed and went to bed. Next day - the Bitter Harvest. Recommended.
As far as the best movie not to take your mother-in-law to - In the Realm of Senses. We should have known better. About 18 years ago we took her, fresh from the stale Soviet culture, to the movies. The little Japanese gem. The rest you can guess. Glad we went home and not to the hospital.
Victor.
I guess a hardcore "Lorena Bobbitt prequel" movie would be okay for my mother-in-law...if she happened to be Madonna!As for mistaking Colm Feore for a dead guy, perfectly understandable. We in the U.S.A. need to hire forensic specialists to determine if our Vice-President is still alive.
I may have to check out the Andrei Rublev DVD, as the version I saw in the theater was about 35 min. shorter.
My favorite part was that egg manipulation sequence... BTW, I saw that DVD on sale at the Best Buy. I even suggested buying it to my wife. She didn't take long to respond.As much as I don't accept their way of life, I admire the Japanese culture. Slow (not rushing) and introspective. Have you seen the Spirit of Tattoo and Woman in Dunes?
Regarding Gore - there was a very popular song in the USSR - "Lenin shall always be alive..." That seventy years after his ideas and most of his lower body have rotten away (upparently there is just part of the upper torso under the blanket).
If you get that Rublev DVD - let me know about its quality. I actually have not watched any DVD's in a while - with my full-blown (and pretty good) home theater set-up we spend most of the time watching the VHS tapes.
Have you seen his first work - The Ivan's Childhood (my translation)? Already gives you the flavor that someone major is coming.
Victor.
I've got "Irezumi: Spirit of the Tattoo" on laserdisc. Saw "Woman In The Dunes" in a theater, a good lesson for entomology students. I'm trying to find a decent version of "Chushingura" (Inagaki's version sort of sucked; I've been told that Mizoguchi and Ichikawa have done better with the 47 Ronin story). What's your favorite Kurosawa film? I guess mine is "Ikiru" based on the way it examines the human condition and vindicates living life well. On the other hand, I could go for "Rashomon" with its lesson in nonobjectivity.I didn't see "Ivan's Childhood", so this is another I'll put on my list.
If you think Japanese cinema is slow, quiet, and introspective, you ought to try "The Scent of Green Papaya" (Vietnamese) and "Why Has Bodhi Dharma Left To The East?" (Korean). The last one is probably the ultimate Zen movie; I'm Buddhist and even I was falling asleep during that one.
***I've got "Irezumi: Spirit of the Tattoo" on laserdisc.That is one stylish movie.
***Saw "Woman In The Dunes" in a theater, a good lesson for entomology students. I'm trying to find a decent version of "Chushingura" (Inagaki's version sort of sucked;
I am not faliliar with that one. Need to look it up in the guide.
***I've been told that Mizoguchi and Ichikawa have done better with the 47 Ronin story). What's your favorite Kurosawa film? I guess mine is "Ikiru" based on the way it examines the human condition and vindicates living life well.My experience with Ikiru was pitiful. It was a double-feature, late hight and movie too long and too slow. We left after about 90 minutes. Who knows, maybe under different curcumstances?
Generally, double-features can be too much. I recall once a local theater showed the 2001 side by side with the Solaris. It felt like a full one day tripper and I think most of the Solaris' beauty was lost to the tired audience. I always loved Banionis (the lead in the Solaris) and I remember that before the movie release there was a tremedous inticipation - reminds me of the Kubrick's releases. The intelligencia in major Russian cities has always been extremely art-sensitive and that is one part of the Russian life that I probably miss the most.
***On the other hand, I could go for "Rashomon" with its lesson in nonobjectivityI don't know which is one I like the most, but the Dreams is up there for sure, together with the Kagemusha. But this is the probem with great directors - you tend to like most of their creations. I recently again emjoyed the Ran on a large screen, too bad the transfer was too fuzzy.
***I didn't see "Ivan's Childhood", so this is another I'll put on my list
It is too bad that the Russian movies are not better known here. Over the decades they have produced a tremendous number of masterpieces. In the recent years, together with a murky wave of pale Hollywood immitations, there were many good ones too. There are stores out there where one can rent all the latest releases (most with totally atrocious quality as a rule - what smart Russian businessman would buy the oficial copies?), unfortunately none is usually translated. In terms of their overall level the better Russian production might be right there with the Italian movies, which I usually put above all others.
***If you think Japanese cinema is slow, quiet, and introspective, you ought to try "The Scent of Green Papaya" (Vietnamese) and "Why Has Bodhi Dharma Left To The East?" (Korean). The last one is probably the ultimate Zen movie; I'm Buddhist and even I was falling asleep during that one
That probably wouldn't be my cup of tea. Although I have a friend who is very much into slow deliberate tortures (he's been to several Wagner's Ring full-length cycles) and I will mentioned those to him.
Have a nice day,
Victor.
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