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In Reply to: re: Murray will get an oscar nom posted by rhizomatic on January 14, 2004 at 13:47:20:
I think there are plenty of people who deserve to be in front of him.Like whom?
Billy Bob in "Bad Santa" immediately leaps to mind. Giamatti in "American Splendor"?
Dang, you compare this performance with Ghostbusters or Caddyshack? What, are you kiddin' me? Sounds like you saw a different movie than I did.
Follow Ups:
in 21 Grams, not Mystic River.Maybe 'Scrooged' would've been a better example.
Bill Murray just looks that way. All he has to do in Lost in Translation is sit around looking dejected. I don't see the accomplishment. His performance is subtle, but that doesn't make it acting, it makes it Being Bill Murray With A Camera Pointed At Him.
What does he do in the film that makes you think he deserves an Oscar for it, or even a nomination?
_____________________________"What is this, a freak-out?"
- Violet Beauregard
See, I get the same feeling of sameness in all Sean Penns roles. And I see Benny the Bull heading the same way after a spectacular start to his career. Penn always takes the same sorts of explosive and bitter roles. He does the same damn thing over and over again. Generally his movies are unpleasant and not entertaining. The synopsis of 21 Grams sure doesn't make me want to see it, however good it might be. I'll prolly see the DVD eventually, but geez, movies are an escape, no?Just because Penn is good at somber/explosive does not mean he's a great actor. He can't do romantic, he can't do likable, he can't do comedy. His rep in the business is that he's an enormous prick. Prolly why he neveer won an oscar- further proof that it's just a high school popularity contest.
Fienes as a disturbed and introverted man. After playing "The Tooth Fairy" in Red Dragon, how much of a stretch is THIS role? Another case of typecasting. I'd love to see the guy take a role as an extroverted goofy guy. Never happen.
Sure, Murray has traded on his persona for decades and it has worn thin. But that is EXACTLY what this LIT character was about. He was the right guy for the job in the same way that Penn was for 21 or Mystic.
I'm always gonna lean towards a comedic role. Comedy is always much more difficult than drama. Subtle comedy like Murray's role in LIT, especially. Ditto Billy Bob in Bad Santa. It's easier to make people feel sad than happy, but to make people feel both, it's a high wire act. These roles are easy to dismiss, but finding the bridge between comedy and pathos and not falling off of it is very hard.
***Just because Penn is good at somber/explosive does not mean he's a great actor. He can't do romantic, he can't do likable,Maybe you didn't see Racing with the Moon? I am not really his fan, but your brush is way too broad and valuation of him simplistic.
I never like Penn, he tries hard and I can respect that..But he misse something, and I wonder if he will ever get it.
What about his work in "Colors", "The Game", and "Sweet and Lowdown"?
He was a mysoginist jerk!"The Game" was a very small part and rather smug, don't you think? "Colors" was a rote cop action flick. Lots of scenry chewing in it by Penn and Duval. I don't recall Penn being likable or romantic or funny in it, but it has been almost 50 years since I saw it . . .
Forgot about that one. Surprisingly good. What's Woody Allen's deal? How can he manage to still pull off gems like that and still churn out all the other crap of the last decade?
_____________________________"What is this, a freak-out?"
- Violet Beauregard
I kind of agree about Sean Penn, although I think it's interesting to contrast his role in Mystic River with the one in 21 Grams, because they're different characters, but a similar tone, and I think the quality of his role has everything to do with the ability of the director. Which I think is what makes him an excellent actor, because you can see how he responds to different styles of direction. Bill Murray, on the other hand, it doesn't matter what he's in. If you like him--and I do--you'll like the movie, probably. I can't think of a Bill Murray movie/role I haven't liked. And I think that LiT is knowingly 'about' him, in a way, but that again underlines my feeling that he's not really doing much in the way of acting.Didn't see Red Dragon, but I can't imagine that the role in Spider is really in the same mien. Actually I viscerally disliked Spider, minute-by-minute, while I was watching it. And it's only been in the many several months since that I've sort of reconstructed it from memory and come to respect it, and Fiennes's performance in particular. Has that ever happened to you? Weird feeling.
I thought Bad Santa was unnecessarily, demonstratively mean-spirited. But it had its moments. Billy Bob was good in it, and his moments with the kid seemed to belong to some ideal version of the film, that didn't get made.
Anyway the Oscars suck. When Shrek beat Monsters Inc. I wanted to sue. I thought I didn't care, then that happened, and now, to the extent that I care at all, they make me very angry.
_____________________________"What is this, a freak-out?"
- Violet Beauregard
Glad you see the same kinda thing about Penn. We can agree to disagree on whether Murray is different with each director. His character for Wes Anderson in "Rushmore" is most similar to his character for Sofa Copola in LIT, yet the performances are strikingly different. I think the fact that it could be taken as being sorta about him really panders to what the public perception of Bill Murray is rather than the real guy. You don't know him anymore than I do. He manipulates that perception into the role perfectly. It's very sublime.There have been some godawful Murray movies, usually broad youth market comedies. Crap like "The Man Who Knew too Little" or "Larger than Life". Another reason for me as to why LIT was such a Bill Murray revelation. For me, the LIT character was a complete break of type.
Billy Bob was really great in Bad Santa. It's hard for most people to get past the evil and grotesque content of the movie to see this complex character. He was brutally deadpan and mean and yet he made this scumbag strangely sympathetic. He transformed what would have been a one-note role for most actors into something of massive tragi-comic proportions.
Yes, the Oscars suck . . . but I still watch 'em.
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