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In Reply to: Wrongo-Bongo posted by Troy on January 14, 2004 at 17:21:43:
...used to be more diverse than that of any other country - or at least I would entertain that possibility. Lately that point has been harder and harder to defend, given the worsening and homogenization of its production.But that, however, wasn't my point.
My point was that by limiting your Academy Awards to just American films you are cheating the American public.
America is still only about 4% of the world population, and there is a LOT that is happening in that "REST OF THE WORLD".
It is real shame our Academy is so locked in stroking our ego instead of promoting the best films in the world.
Look at what is happening at Cannes, for instance.
There they are after finding the best film, whereever it is produced.
This promotes good competition and makes the public more aware of the great world of movies.
If you decide to stay mentally with the Academy, on the other hand, you are bound to develop the mentality of that sheep herder, instead of becoming a citizen of the world.
The Academy is rightly paranoid - being a monopoly it relies on its exclusivity to maintain its grip. If more foreign movies were promoted through its Awards, more big studios would lose money - bad idea. So the hundreds of great movies get lip service by being jammed into a small secondary category.
To present the current situation in any positive light is naive - no isolationism ever is.
For a brief list of what's out there and on how the US films stack up against the world best, view these:
http://us.imdb.com/Sections/Awards/Cannes_Film_Festival/2003
http://us.imdb.com/Sections/Awards/Cannes_Film_Festival/2002
http://us.imdb.com/Sections/Awards/Cannes_Film_Festival/2001
http://us.imdb.com/Sections/Awards/Cannes_Film_Festival/2000
I have to warn you - it might be sobbering.
Follow Ups:
We're doing 2 different things.You attacked American films in general. I defended them.
Now you attack the Academy Awards, when I said nothing about them in my last post.
The last thing I'm going to do is defend the Academy Awards. Yes, it is Hollywood-centric. Generally, they are just an industry driven popularity contest. But I gotta tell ya, so is Cannes. There's a lot of films in those lists I haven't seen, but just like the Oscars, of the ones I have seen, about half are crap. It's different crap than the Oscars, but crap is crap. "Dancer in the Dark" as best picture? What a truly horrendous trainwreck of a movie. That's just as embarassing as "Titanic" winning best picture.
You are wrong to think that just because the Academy Awards don't nominate these movies, that does not mean that they are not available to be seen in the US. The big cities are filled with small theaters showing these small films.
If you decide to stay mentally with the Academy, on the other hand, you are bound to develop the mentality of that sheep herder, instead of becoming a citizen of the world.
Yes. But what makes you think that everybody in America is like this? America sure has it's share of sheep citizens, but so does EVERY other country. You have this generalized and closed-minded view of Americans and America. Yeah, we love ourselves . . . but we love ourselves no more than the French, Spanish or Chinese do.
Lost in Translation is about American archetype characters thrust into a foreign place. Yet the movie is constructed like a small European art film with it's internalized emotions and slow pace. It's got more American appeal because it's about American archetypes, even though the construction of the movie is not styled for action-loving general US filmgoers, the ones that see Bad Boys 2.
It's obvious that you tend to dismiss America, Americans and American art in the same way that the Academy dismisses foreign films. When was the last time you had anything really good to say about an American film?
Qui aime bien, châtie bien, we use to say in France.
The Cannes festival his more oriented in a political way now, that must have started in the late 60´s..It is just chic to be anti- American films, may I say...but any way hasard or not ...they deserve it....One could argue what about the biggest industry in the world..the Indian cinema....made for another continent?
Victor do not dismiss US films he just dismiss bad quality, and rightly so!
Please explain this French saying.Indian cinema is appallingly bad. It is their replacement for TV.
No, Vic may not dismiss US films, but there is a prejudice there. There is a limited scope of vision.
Well actually there are a few US films that I do like, and there is still the hope there are more to come...so like Cervantes we carry on.
Well I have the same prejudice then, but it is NOT one, just experience...
Look, most of them are sugar coated, far away from any truth, overly romantized, raped from any REAL human feelings, a cosmetical world without real soul..Look at " The Last Samurai "..I just saw the preview ( Yes THAT could be a real prejudice, but I KNOWS it is not )
This is just so distorted from any thing real real. Appaling.
Yes, the last Samurai was appallingly bad. An insult to Samurai everywhere. Ed Zwick thinks he's David Lean, but he isn't qualified to remove Lean's lens cap. It was plastic and emotionally retarded.Unlike you and Vic however, I don't think EVERY movie has to be pure truth and stark reality. Movies inherently have a cosmetic and sugar coated element. the trick is to hold that in check.
On the other hand this is a personal question, why wasting his time and getting dumber at this stupid movies when there are so manys good outside that we still did not see...
And no they don´t have inherently what you says!!!
Weird thing to say!
But you could post a headline on this:
" Are all movies inherently cosmetic and sugar coated "
Do that.
I feel the all-too-familiar defensive notes rising in your voice... that is bad.Me... I call them as I see them, no matter where they come from. So just recently I slammed a French film (Kaka full blast rating) and a Russian one, and today praised an American film.
To me American movie industry represents just a small portion of the world muvies. And not necessarily the most interesting, just voluminous. Apparently to you it is opposite, but that is your issue.
Funny, I did't hear Patrick scream bloody murder over my criticism of some French works - you should take some tips from him.
One would be foolish to deny the existance of very definite general (or typical) flavors for movies made in different parts of the world.
Russian films... French... Italian... Japanese... Polish... German... American... Swedish... Spanish... Chinese... Czech... Finnish... Brazilian... Mexican... Hong-Kong... Korean... Belgian... Norwegian...
...they all have strong local flavors. Some tend to be much more insightful - guess which ones? Some tend to gravitate to simplicity and fast action... guess who?
But there was good lesson to be learned from perusing the Cannes lists I gave you - as they provide a good glimps at the world as the whole... something typically not visible to an American viewer, but something that is usually VERY obvious to the movie buffs in other parts of the world. If you keep denying this you are falling behind.
I agree that Dancer in the Dark is hardly a great film, but that was just the jury vote - the list of runner ups speaks for itself.
Last thing you want is to adapt that silly America=World attitude.
The rhetorics in your last paragraph? I was used to us when living in the USSR, thank you. But that was in the totalitarian society.
Funny, I did't hear Patrick scream bloody murder over my criticism of some French works - you should take some tips from him.Feel free to bash bad American movies. LIT is not a bad movie, it's quite good in fact. It's subtlties were obviously lost on you, a man that normally goes out of his way to find subtlty. Vic, you didn't even watch the whole thing!
...they all have strong local flavors. Some tend to be much more insightful - guess which ones? Some tend to gravitate to simplicity and fast action... guess who?
There you go again. The American industry produces more films of EVERY type than all those countries you listed, combined. There's bound to be a higher percentage of crap.
To you, an ideal film is a slice of life story about the locals. Culturally interesting, but ultimately, the human story remains the same whether it's Maoris trying to keep their culture alive or a Hindu family preparing for a wedding. I don't go to the movies purely for a sociology or anthropology lesson. I go to be entertained. Most foreign films don't get the fact that it's entertainment first.
Last thing you want is to adapt that silly America=World attitude.
Don't like American cultural Imperialism, eh? American cultural Imperialism doesn't care what you or I think. It is a mindless juggernaut.
America is the great melting pot. Every culture bubbles into the stew, flavoring it. We don't care about other cultures as much the rest of the world does because we already have them living with us on the same block. How many Frenchmen personally know Japanese people and have a sushi bar in the neighborhood? How many Chinese people know Swedes personally? Well, for them, seeing how these cultures live and interact is a new and revelatory thing. For Americans, every day, bud, every day.
The best and the brightest from all around the world end up here in every profession for a reason. The freedom to kick ass. This dynamic allows for a film industry like ours to flourish unlike in any other country. Without the American business to emulate, the rest of the world's movie industries would be at a loss for how to make movies. Without an American movie industry, there is no foreign movie industry. Americans invented the medium and continue to move it forward.
It is not about bashing American movies! It is about to bash BAD movies, one can only note that most of them are US productions because this an money industry! And with even more vigor as the others countries are now making the same merde, and that is fatal.
What will be left are only a few fools, who like tubes or vinyls records or analog photography. In one word " old farts ".
And that is tragic, because our lost is not our gain.
***Funny, I did't hear Patrick scream bloody murder over my criticism of some French works - you should take some tips from him.
Feel free to bash bad American movies. LIT is not a bad movie, it's quite good in fact. It's subtlties were obviously lost on you, a man that normally goes out of his way to find subtlty. Vic, you didn't even watch the whole thing!Sure, I didn't even finish it! It was BORING! I seldom fall asleep in front of the screen.
I'll grant you this: if I were less tired, I might have finished it.
But be fair - I didn't slam that one.
***There you go again. The American industry produces more films of EVERY type than all those countries you listed, combined. There's bound to be a higher percentage of crap.I don't know the proportion, and you don't know it either... I don't work on percentages. I see a movie - I rate it, that is all. But of course over the time my scale had developed based on many films from all over the place.
***To you, an ideal film is a slice of life story about the locals.
Locals? Who are the locals? Locals to me? Here, in Delaware? In NYC (loved the one last night)? In Paris (loved one a few days back)?
I don't think what you are saying makes any sense. How "local" was Passion in the Desert?
*** Culturally interesting, but ultimately, the human story remains the same whether it's Maoris trying to keep their culture alive or a Hindu family preparing for a wedding. I don't go to the movies purely for a sociology or anthropology lesson. I go to be entertained. Most foreign films don't get the fact that it's entertainment first.I don't have problem with your view of the movies - that is your business. I expect a bit more of movies, and I rate films based on my expectations. I am not forcing anyone to adapt my views, just suggest what might be interesting... if they go and see it - fine, if not, I don't lose much sleep.
***Don't like American cultural Imperialism, eh? American cultural Imperialism doesn't care what you or I think. It is a mindless juggernaut.
It is... but I really care little what it is. When a good movie comes from America I rate it highly... simple as that. I don't get involved in the cultural wars.
***America is the great melting pot. Every culture bubbles into the stew, flavoring it. We don't care about other cultures as much the rest of the world does because we already have them living with us on the same block.I don't think this as as true as you are describing. Many Americans are completely oblivious of the world outside their home town - the isolationism is in American veins.
***How many Frenchmen personally know Japanese people and have a sushi bar in the neighborhood? How many Chinese people know Swedes personally? Well, for them, seeing how these cultures live and interact is a new and revelatory thing. For Americans, every day, bud, every day.
Well, to some, yes. But you are mostly talking NYC.
***The best and the brightest from all around the world end up here in every profession for a reason.
I never doubted that. But we should not be arrogant enough to presume that this great country is the best place for everyone.
Like every other country on Earth it also has weak spots. High culture is most definitely one of them.
***The freedom to kick ass. This dynamic allows for a film industry like ours to flourish unlike in any other country.Well, unfortunately most of it is like fast food industry. Unfortunately we, the Americans, let our formerly advanced movie culture decay in favor of schlock one... I feel very strongly that way.
That doesn't mean good stuff is gone - just that there is less of it, in my view.
***Without the American business to emulate, the rest of the world's movie industries would be at a loss for how to make movies.
Well, I wouldn't be so sure about that. Perhaps you should review the things done in Europe before that.
***Without an American movie industry, there is no foreign movie industry. Americans invented the medium and continue to move it forward.Consider this. Without any questions there has been tremendously great and positive contribution of the American movie industry to the rest of the world. Granted.
But also granted is another trend... that of corruption. Today more and more films in more and more countries immitate the American money-producing trash. You can see it all over the globe. And this is not something to be mightily proud of.
Anyway, big subject and good foundation of endless discussions.
Locals? Who are the locals? Locals to me? Here, in Delaware? In NYC (loved the one last night)? In Paris (loved one a few days back)?The locals in the location the film takes place. Mongolian films are invariably about Mongols doing Mongolian things.
***America is the great melting pot. Every culture bubbles into the stew, flavoring it. We don't care about other cultures as much the rest of the world does because we already have them living with us on the same block.
I don't think this as as true as you are describing. Many Americans are completely oblivious of the world outside their home town - the isolationism is in American veins.
Nonsense. Within 5 houses of my own suburban California home I have black, white and asian neighbors. I have 1st generation German, Brits and Chinese immigrants. How many Icelanders, Japanese or Russians or Mongols can say this? Its' right under our noses every single day, so obvious, no one seems to notice . . . outside the USA.
Regardless, just as many Euros and Asians are ALSO blind and oblivious to the world outside their home town.
Like every other country on Earth it (America) also has weak spots. High culture is most definitely one of them.
Because art is business driven in the US. In Europe's golden age, all the money was controlled by the church. The church sponsored all art. That's why the Louvre walls are covered with Bible scenes. Today, business controls the money. The US is the strongest business economy in the world, therefore, we have the largest sponsorship of the arts. No, not the government (we are disgustingly behind on that), but business.
Now, note I didn't say "High Culture". High Culture (opera, classical music, poetry) is dead, run down by the onrushing express train of the machine age. The art of the 20th century that will be remembered 500 years from now are disciplines like industrial design, advertising, architecture, movies etc. Places where the US excelled over all other countries.
***The freedom to kick ass. This dynamic allows for a film industry like ours to flourish unlike in any other country.
Well, unfortunately most of it is like fast food industry. Unfortunately we, the Americans, let our formerly advanced movie culture decay in favor of schlock one... I feel very strongly that way.
Yes, but because it's so strong, producing hundreds of movies a year, there is also room for a lot more good small films to leak through than in a place that produces 3 films total per year.
***Without the American business to emulate, the rest of the world's movie industries would be at a loss for how to make movies.
Well, I wouldn't be so sure about that. Perhaps you should review the things done in Europe before that.
Before that? Before movies?
Or do you mean stuff like German Expressionism which was really simply a style of art direction? The French New Wave films about nothing? Please elaborate what I'm missing.
Today more and more films in more and more countries immitate the American money-producing trash. You can see it all over the globe. And this is not something to be mightily proud of.
You see the glass half-empty, I see it half-full. You can fight the world if you want, but the world doesn't care. It will just mow your ass down mericilessly if you let it. Better to keep you head above the wave and see the good when it comes.
Anyway, big subject and good foundation of endless discussions.
Boy howdy!
.
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