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In Reply to: Re: Holly cow! Time to watch it again! posted by rico on February 04, 2004 at 13:41:28:
He is so hard to please!
Follow Ups:
...tell me where is that soul you mention, as I haven´t found traces of it: not in the main character, who shows no changes, no moral progress, who is always detached from life itself, no matter his material progress, or his fall... or did you notice any improvement, any sign of maturity or change in him?; nor is there any in la Berenson, who starts being selfish, and ends her role in the same line... whose soul are you talking about?As a fine portrait of that society, it is really splendid, and I don´t have memory of any film which I would cite as a better example of a true feast to the eye. And as a portrait of the (a)morality of a social climber, it is fine, too. But not about human soul, or about the human condition itself.
So no complains, and no regrets: I enjoyed it very much, but not for the reasons you mention.
Regards
BF
Pauline Kael called BL "the first coffee table movie".
Well, if you think that Barry pulling the ribbon out of girl's corsage and Barry limping on one leg is the same person then perhaps you could use an interpreter the next time you watch it?To miss his change is to miss the whole point of the film. It is presented in a subtle way, sure, no crude acting there.
Anyway, each one of the many sub-stories in the film tells a different tale, and each one is a mini-film - like Barry spending time with the widow on his way to regiment. All small gems with real people... tooo bad you missed it.
...the film being not so much about himself as it is an extremely accurate portrait of his time´s society, with him as a man who is craving not for love, or for enlightenment, but for assuring economic well-being for himself, in that society. And he never really grows up into a real man (while he shows some nobleness when, in that duel which puts an abrupt end to his pretensions, he chooses not to take advantage over his opponent, and makes an empty shot, just to find out that his opponent, born from a higher place, is even less noble than he, and makes no fuss of limping him).That the film portrays that society is confirmed by the date in that document Lady Lyndon signs, assigning him a pension, if I remember well: 1789, the year in which the Declaration of The Rights of Man was proclaimed in France, whose First article says that " Men are born and remain free and equal in rights. Social distinctions may be founded only upon the general good", exactly the opposite of what has been happening in the story Kubrick so beautifully has told us.
Ryan O'Neal´s bovine (or sheepish, if you prefer) acting never reveals a change inside him..., because he doesn´t actually change: he starts poor, climbs into that society, but he never is more than a parvenu with poor tastes (he chooses a picture because of its size, not for its quality, or for some personal affection), kind of a nouveau riche, as it frequently happens..., and he finally goes back to his early living, poorer than he started, with one leg less to rest on. Kubrick never left much (if anything) to chance when filming, and he was able to choose pratically whoever he wanted for his pictures and, needless to say, Mr. O'Neal never was a good actor..., but he fit like hand in glove for Kubrick's purposes.
I will never deny the splendid quality of this film, which as I have said, has no peer in sheer beauty. And, as a portrait of a class doomed to disappear because of its selfishness and its lack of real soul, it´s virtually impossible to better. But it doesn´t portray much of the inner soul of the character it takes its name from. My feeling is that maybe much of what you are seeing in it comes from yourself, not being really in the author's intention.
Regards
BF
First you said there was no change in character, then that the character is not important... which is it?So... no change in character means something is not done right? OK... what about the hero of WIld Stawberries? How much does HE change in the course of the film?
Fact is, the movie is not a sum of its parts, much like the painting is not the collection of faces on it. The movie as art form is about the means of creating the mood, the atmosphere, the emotion, the message sometimes, etc, etc. Most of these are present in Barry Lyndon, making it not just a representation of some societal trends at the time of Barry's life, but a great MOVIE.
And a great movie can be done with many parts you mentioned even present. If I were to adapt your logic then the Persona would be an awful waste of time.
"First you said there was no change in character, then that the character is not important... which is it?" Both: he doesn´t change, he only develops an ability for social climbing, and then he is defeated , loses one leg, and is thrown back to his earlier way of living; but he is no wiser, nor has he matured and transformed into a better man. And his character is just the name (wrongly acquired, never really his) he got in his best days, which is wiped away once he loses his cheated wife´s favor."Barry Lyndon" is Kubrick´s most beautifully told portrait of that immoral, selfish, soulless society, and it is a masterwork on every count. But it is not about that man´s soul: he is just a pawn in a game of power, and as such he is mercilessly used, and then spent when the ones he emulates, and who never accept him as their peer, find him inconvenient.
"So... no change in character means something is not done right?" Where did I say that? I never said anything was done wrongly in this excellent film: Kubrick did exactly what he wanted to do, in his usually masterly way..., but he didn´t want to show us the true soul of this poor rascal, but an accurate picture of that society, with its flaws and its immorality, and that he did in spades.
"OK... what about the hero of WIld Stawberries? How much does HE change in the course of the film?" Here you are stepping in waters too deep for a superficial look to fathom them: The whole film is about how Itzak (Victor Sjöström) is forced, when at the pinnacle of his achievements (he is travelling to be named "Doctor Honoris Causa")by his inner self, to relive, through dreams and recurrent memories of his own past, some significant, crucial points in his own life, and how he failed..., and about how that makes his persona, that mask he´s been building and hiding behind through his life, stumble, then shatter into pieces, and finally melt down under the heat of his emotions, leaving his soul finally free and allowing him to become a true human being undergoing a deep process of transformation leading to his individuation. If you can´t see how the man at the end of this wonderful film is so different from the one he was when it started, better look at it again, this time with your eyes wide open, for everything is there to be seen.
And now, please don´t even try to patronize me on these matters: I grew up looking at Bergman´s, and many others, films, both good and bad, and I can assure you that I have developed a keen eye to detect pretenders, and to keep them separate from true achievers, even when these last ones not always succeed in full -what is not the case with Kubrick, much less in "Barry Lyndon", which I have repeatedly said to be without peer (while you seem to think I said it´s bad...)
We both agree at considering "Barry Lyndon" a wonderful film. But for different reasons, what simply points to its greatness.
Now I´d ask you to do me a favor: as we simply don´t agree, and it seems none of us is able to convince the other, I´d be happy to have an impartial, sensible, intelligent judge mediating and, on that effect, would you be so kind to show this whole thread to Anya, and ask her if she´d like to state her own opinion here? I am sure both of us would learn something...
Thanks. Regards
BF
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