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I wrote that title, and then thought - perhaps it is misplaced, as given our discussion below, it is obvious Hollywood simply doesn't WANT to understand, or... understands but chooses to ignore it, as its goal is different.I am talking here about the subject matter in the typical Hollywood film, and how it differentiates it from the - it appears like it - the rest of the world.
I am still under the quiet spell of Autumn Spring - a warm and human Czech film, that is perhaps as different from your typical Hollywood fare as Joe Stalin was from Jimmy Carter.
It seems to me that in that part of the world - and I mean Eastern Europe perhaps even more than the Western one - the interest in the subject that I always find fascinating - the humans with their joys and sufferings - is still very much alive, while here, at Hollywood, it has been completely replaced with the monsters and deviants.
Case in point: a few days back I believe Tin suggested that the Hollywood film with a completely adolescent sounding title Monster was something special.
My reaction - sorry, but I am not going to waste my time and money watching yet another story of a serial killer.
There is something quite degrading in the American fascination with mass murderers, serial killers, morons (John Belushi and the warshipers of his church), deviants of all kinds, anti-social idiots, prostitutes-gone-housewives, and all other sorts of scum, human trash, refuse, garbage... enter your favorite word of disgust here.
Put simply, I am not going to watch the Monster, no matter how "unrecognizable" the actress is. I simply say ho-hum.
So I will sit here, remebering the HUMAN faces of people in the yesterday's film, and the ones in the Mondays in the Sun, disenchanted, yet still HUMAN... and the many before them... and the many yet to come, but I shall draw my line around my home and shall not let scum penetrate it.
Much has been said recently here about the degradation of Hollywood. Most of it true. And the fundamental cause of it all is the love afair with garbage.
The HUMAN garbage.
So I am looking forward to the Kurosawa script - I know he never stopped to the human garbage level. I will watch that Finnish Kukushka - about a woman caught in the war, giving the shelter to a Soviet and a Finnish soldiers - and I will expect those characters to behave like the HUMANS do... like you and I, not like yet another serial killer.
Garbage breeds garbage... the garbage subject is bound to produce nothing but garbage "art" after a while, and we have seen plenty of it... all flowing downhill from Hollywood.
It appears that the Western Europe is caugh half way between the ugliness of Hollywood and the still relative pure waters of the Eastern one.
Follow Ups:
It's all about money, Victor. It's all the same everywhere, not just in Hollywood. People choose to make crap for big bucks over doing good for little money.
Most people I know in computer undistry work for dot coms writing shitty programs, laughing at me behind my back for my pathetic salary (who needs cancer research anyway?).
You, how many audio manufacturers do you know that sell REALLY bad equipment for astonishingly high prices? Probably most of the participants of the last CES?
Same with Hollywood. Everyone want to be Eisenstein, but no one wants to ride a bicycle. The choice is easy for some.
I agree that much of the product of the Hollywood studio system is vapid crap. Not exclusively though, and not exclusively American, either....as you have also noticed.Your conclusions about obsession with 'human garbage' is a little over the top, IMO. I think the proliferation of mediocrity is a worse problem [but not the only one] with art and cinema here in America. Just look at this thread for an example. '[NL's] Animal House' is an example of the high point of a small hill, and not a good example of the kind of artistic, literary and creative excellence we should expect in our movies. After all, National Lampoon went on to make all the 'Vacation' movies as well, all of which pale in comparison to the works of Tim Burton and the Cohens among others. BTW, do the Cohen Brothers work within the Hollywood studio system, or are they with Miramax, I don't remember.
The judgement of anything without firsthand experience is a little troubling, since it resemble the reactionary responses of various religious groups to movies like "Hail Mary", "The Last Temptation of Christ" and "The Life of Brian". These folks did not want to despoil themselves by actually viewing these movies, but they sure had strong opinions about them, and their artistic merit. We'll see about "The Passion..."
I think the outrage over John Belushi is silly, as his movies were not really the pinnacle of art by any measure...even if I do love 'The Blues Brothers'. Otherwise I agree and seem to spend more time in the foreign and independent film sections than anywhere else. I also look for your [and others'] reviews for a starting point as what to investigate, because we seem to agree more than not.
As we move farther from the oppression of the old Soviet societies, it will be interesting to see what happens with the art and cinema originating from people within those countries.
Later
D
Don't you ever get tired of spewing the same old rhetoric over and over again?We know you dislike American cinema. Near as I can tell, you dislike all American art. You think America has no art, has no class. Move on already!
Do you live in America? If you think America is such a cultural wasteland and culture is so important to you, why do you live here? It's not for the money, is it? Cuz, brother, you got a lot of nerve if it is.
Why do you insist on trashing a film (Monster) which you have not even seen? Where do you get off with this supreme arrogance?
Do you think that the attraction of anti-social characters is a purely American thing? Euro history and literature is FULL of deviants, killers and degenerates.
Why is it that if you don't like it, it's always garbage? Who made you the final arbiter of taste? Belushi and the 3 Stooges were geniuses. You're too much of a still to get it. You're the people they were making fun of and it galls you.
So why do you come to this BB every day whining the same old litany, over and over again? Do you honestly think you can sway people's opinions with this euro-eliteism?
You're just wrong on SO many counts here it's simply ludicrous.
Hi Troy,Let me answer this question first. Why Do I live here? Because I could no longer take the type of the close-minded, rigid, mindset as the one you are displaying here, that was prevailing where I used to live.
If you would like to continue along the lines of this question, you are welcome to come to the Outside, where I will tell you everything as it is, with kids not listening.
A couple of interesting observations regarding your post.
First - your equating Hollywood with American art. I really dunno what forces apparently intelligent people to make big blanders like that.
I would submit to you that George Innes and Gershvin have just a tiny bit more to do with American art than your beloved Hollywood.
Making off-the-wall and far-out remarks like that surely does little to enhance one's position.
So you love Belushi - no, I am not even going to repeat that "genius" statement.
OK, that is your choice. But let me submit to you that if our kids learned just a little bit less about food fights, orgies and crushing beer can on their forhead, and just a tiny bit more about math, they would not score they way they tend to score in the international tests - well behind all developed and not-so-developed countries.
But you may remain proud of that part of our heritage.
To say the Euro culture is full of deviants is easy, until one take time at the ROLES those deviants play there, and the relative proportion of such creations in the overall volume of culture.
Even more interesting is the fact that you also apparently equate Hollywood with American films. As others and myself have already indicated here, there is plenty of interesting life outside Hollywood... you might check that out.
Furthermore... my euro-elitism... let me break this news to you: last time I checked Japan was not a part of Europe... it was a part of a thing I would call WORLD. Ditto for Brazil, Mexico, Korea, Vietnam, India and a few other places, most of which a typical American student can't find on a map.
America is still just a small part of that beautiful world, and if one is over-concentrating on Belushi, he is boud to miss that.
Anyway, going back to my original premise - I do believe that Hollywood started and led the trend towards the dehumanization of the movie art, and in that trend it has gone far too far, and we are fortunate that many other places have fallen behind it in that trend, or we would not have many, many beautiful works of art produced elsewhere... in "Europe" by your definition, in the "rest of the world" by mine... things like the Sea is Watching that I discussed last night.
So I truly believe the problem is not with me, but with the closed minds of people like you.
> I would submit to you that George Innes and Gershvin have just a tiny bit more to do with American art than your beloved Hollywood.That's a matter of opinion that cannot be 'proven' one way or another; and in fact I have a feeling many, if not most, would disagree with you on this. You've got an easy answer waiting, though: you can blame it on the degradation of American culture.
> if our kids learned just a little bit less about food fights, orgies and crushing beer can on their forhead, and just a tiny bit more about math
Give me a break, please. You're sounding to me like someone who is not aware that the National Lampoon was founded by people who wrote for the Harvard Lampoon. That's right, Harvard . One of these was one of the men MOST responsible for 'Animal House'--Douglas Kenney. He was one of the original founders of the National Lampoon. To attend Harvard, I do believe, you have to be at least marginally educated. That you claim to have seen Animal House several times means little, since the point seems lost on you. It's a satirical look at college fraternity life, meant to poke fun at the people who did the sorts of things that Belushi did in that movie, not to celebrate them. Belushi's character gets expelled , which is a lot more believable than the success his character is said to achieve later on. The sensibility of the National Lampoon seems completely lost on you. That's okay, most of the rest of the country didn't get it, either.
You're castigating Belushi, which is something I could do to the Marx Brothers if I decided I didn't like the political comedy of, say, 'Duck Soup,' and I wanted to pick on the off-screen problems that Chico Marx endured in his lifetime. Was he a 'social moron' for his gambling problems any less than Belushi was for his drug problems? Belushi met with the President of the United States, did Marx? Belushi was also a guy who went out of his way, in every way possible, to educate his audience about the music he loved. Social moron, indeed. Take a good look at the resumes of the players that were hired for the various Blues Brothers projects, and try to get an idea of how unknown they & their music were at the time. Then go back & look at the things you've said about a guy who brought a wealth of forgotten music to the masses, and in fact had woefully underappreciated players performing for larger audiences than many of them had ever played before. This was Belushi's doing.
> a pig who created some of the most revolting characters
What characters did he create that you had such a problem with? He did NOT create the character he played in Animal House, nor was it all that much of an exaggeration on an earlier incarnation of that same character, who went under a different name, in Chris Miller's 1975 'Adelphian Lodge' story. If you have a problem with the character he played in the Blues Brothers, then you're getting into a musical realm in which I'm going to have a VERY LARGE problem with anything you have to say about that character, which did a great deal for blues music in this country during a time when it was all but forgotten. Even that character had been spun off from a 'Bees' sketch on one of the very first episodes of 'Saturday Night Live,' prior to the show even being known under that particular name. Belushi did not create the Bee character; he hated it, in fact. And I'm not even sure whether or not the Blues character was completely his, either. Are you?
> I do believe that Hollywood started and led the trend towards the dehumanization of the movie art
Fine. So start a boycott then. Belushi was an actor, not a producer, director, or much of a writer, to the best of my knowledge. A comic actor, for the most part. If you know where he bankrolled any of the projects he appeared in or was responsible for pictures you didn't like getting made, then I stand corrected. Otherwise, I would suggest that you turn yr attention towards the people who were actually responsible for Belushi having made it to the big screen, for surely they deserve more blame than he. It was their decision to use him, not his, and in projects such as Animal House where he had little creative input. I'm actually quite surprised you'd reserve this much venom for a guy who is only marginally responsible for most of what you're blaming him for.
***> I would submit to you that George Innes and Gershvin have just a tiny bit more to do with American art than your beloved Hollywood.
***That's a matter of opinion that cannot be 'proven' one way or another; and in fact I have a feeling many, if not most, would disagree with you on this.Thank you... I think you made your point loud and clear.
Not ONE word about Belushi or Animal House, huh? Oh, and by the way, it wasn't 'Animal House,' it was ' National Lampoon's Animal House.' A distinction completely lost on you. You're not even willing to take responsibility for yr words, are you? I wonder how you'd feel if YOU were unjustly criticized, as you've done here, by someone who didn't have his facts straight, as you didn't. I really do.
... I get it... it is not Animal House, no... it is National Lampoon's Animal House....Thanks! That changes everything.
See, I did put some words on Animal House in this post.
Seriously, I like really don't know what to add to all this.
Enjoy.
...it is helpful if you have all yr facts in order. Yr real point of the thread was an attack on Hollywood. In doing so you said some very choice things about John Belushi which were not true, and, as I pointed out, reflective more of yr own personal dislike for him than anything having to do with the issues at hand. What if I agreed with yr basic overall premise? I would have to be dismayed that yr points are captive to emotion rather than reason, and I would be forced to the conclusion that you do yr point more harm than good by speaking of that which you clearly do not know. Sort of like what Michael Moore does when it comes to lefty political ideals.Oh, and by the way, it helps when you're willing to admit that you were mistaken, if not wrong.
I see you as the rigid and closed minded one, without a doubt. Unlike you, I can enjoy both quality films from outside the US and US made films, even ones from Hollywood. I can enjoy gross and juvenile comedies or warm human stories, regardless of where they are from.On the other hand, YOU can only enjoy 3rd world films where all the characters are "real" and the story is a slice of life that revels in the local customs, regional charm and "human warmth".
I'm sure this Czech movie you mention is nice, it's received some excellent press. But just because this is the only type of film YOU deem worthy of your time does not mean it's the only type of film that everyone else does.
Every movie is not art. It makes no pretentions of being art. It's supposed to be entertainment. Everyone's idea of what entertainment is does not line up with your limited view.
What I'm saying is, why can't I like Autumn Spring AND Animal House?
Am I proud of Belushi and the Stooges? You better believe it. Because they skewer pompous and arrogant snobs like you. You simply can't laugh at someone making fun of you, so typical of the self-appointed cultural elite. If you can't laugh at yourself, you can't laugh at anything else either.
Regardless of your or my position on the matter, your constant harping on these matters is tedious at best. We all know you hate Hollywood and American film (unless it's some little indie film) already. Every time you make a post about something you like, you persist in mentioning how bad modern Hollywood films are. Talk about something else.
...self-centered, provincial, and ignorant?Sure you donīt understand why, do you?
Amused regards
BF
...how exactly does John Belushi skewer me.As far as I can tell, the idiot died a horrible dog's death, much in line with his "art"... and I am still around.
Who's exactly is getting the last laugh, Troy?
As far as your line that what I consider the majority of the world's movies is actually just the... lesse... ah, yes... "3rd world films" - well I have already responded to that bit of wisdom... the narrow America-centric viewpoint...
Why would someone discard the whole of Europe and Japan as "3rd world" is beyond me...
Perhaps our education system is in far bigger trouble than I realize?
s
Why do you have to get "the last laugh" on Belushi? Why does his comedy hurt you so that you need to say things like that? This vindictiveness must stem form your feeling personally insulted by the comedian. Again, you can't laugh at yourself, you supercilious little man.Who cares about his drug addictions? As though other artists all over the world have not had their own addictions through history! It's common with many artists, I think because of their boredom with the mundane people and the repressions of the regular world around them.
The 3rd world comment: You and orejones are so dang sensitive! You guys are so easily baited.
You can tell me how narrow-minded and America-centric I am, but you're wrong. Like I've said since the first time I've communicated with you. I watch foregin films all the time. And I watch American films. You don't see me coming in here every day and bashing French cinema, do you? Victor, YOU are the one that comes in here every day spouting the same old snobbish diatribe on Hollywood and American movies. Give the daily America bashing a rest. We got it the first 300 times. It has become extremely repetitive and boring. Stop biting the hand that feeds you.
...that Victor is *not* little.
You, on the other hand, have now reduced yourself to insults.Perhaps it would help you to know, that V. *particularly* hates it when someone here -- you'll know who I mean -- lauds stuff like Return to the Planet of the Apes, or Star Wars 1/2/-.
*I*, however, can enjoy Pirates of the Caribbean, Open Range etc. as excellent pastimes while still finding myself being moved more deeply by, say, Black Orpheus, Nights of Cabiria, Wild Strawberries, Grand Illusion, Yojimbo etc.
clark
Troy, I grew up with John Belushi -- lived close by, we went to the Wheaton Central High School together. I followed his career closely, have seen all his movies and watched him perform many times at Second City. He WAS a great artist and he DID die a terrible death, but I would never label him an "idiot" as Victor has. A drug addiction is a terrible thing and he deserves sympathy and not ridicule. I'm glad you can see him through the pain of his addiction and recognize him for his comedic genius he truly was.
!
YOU started the rather idiotic line of him "skewing" me, so eat your lumps and your words now, do not whine... BIG man.I do despise people like him because they DO have PROFOUND negative effect on our children. When you or tin fall all over yourself watching his idiotic escapades - that is your business, but you should have eyes enough to see that the social morons like Belushi do promote and create more anti-social deviants.
For the life of me I can't connect a deviant like Belushi to myself... so I find your repeated "can't laugh at youself" so silly... he was a social moron, a drunk and a drug user, I believe I share none of those "qualities". And I am saying this not as some prude - we all had our wild days.
But I DO see the conenction between him and many others, that's for sure, and that's regrettable.
You say "who cares about his drug addiction"? Well, if you don't, then all I can tell you you should. Funny I have to tell that to a grown man.
Regarding the sensitivity... look in the mirror again. I was just typing my thoughs after watching a particular film, you came out like Jack from the box, swinging wildly.
Some of your statements were indefensible, and you got nailed for them. Leak your wounds and move on.
Regarding my concern with Hollywood... darn right I am concerned: this is my country and it hurts me to see it slide in some areas, its culture being one of them.
You apparently don't share that concern, whatever comes your way is fine, I refuse to take that "whatever".
That is why I vote with my dollars, and that is why I tell others about that, hoping more people will stop patronizing the garbage.
A fight in vain? Should I repeat here again the words of Cyrano? I am sure you can figure that out... right?
If I was living in Spain, Russia or Zanzibar, my prime concern would be with the culture of Spain, Russia, Zanzibar... but the US is my home and feel I must try to make it a better place, not accept people like Belushi as the best this land can produce.
.... trying to espouse onto others your personal preferences and ethics. It's terribly annoying that you persistently refer to films the masses enjoy as garbage - as if you were some annoited authority appointed to stem the degredation of culture (in light of what you've written, "ethics" is actually a better word then "culture").
I will keep calling them as I see it, and you will have the choice of either reading my posts or ignoring them.Interestingly, I do not divide films into those for "masses" and those for... for... I dunno... elite, perhaps? What would be your word here? Some require more education and preparation to be appreciated - but education is hardly what separates the masses from the elite.
I simply watch all kinds of films - as I mentioned before, most of them the not so good films on American cable - and state my opinions on them. If you find my opinions interesting for whatever reason - read them, otherwise...
I am shocked, shocked! to discover that you equate expression of personal opinion with espousing onto others my personal preferences. For instance, I don't like NPR, so I simply ignore it.
You can always find conflicting opinions in this group, so you are hardly forced to read my posts, let alone to be forced to do anything by them.
What I CAN promise you is that I am NOT gonna start giving any special allowances to any country or studio or director... I think this is the only fair way of doing this.
On a personal note - I wish more people contributed to this group. But we had periods here with five posts per week, so it seems. So if you have an opinion on something you liked or disliked, please post it.
BTW - the great majority of films that I wrote about here are not some super-sophisticated creations that take tons of education to appreciate - most of them are rather simple stories, except made well. So in essence they are movies for the "masses" - see, I even used that word here.
There's a fine line between expressing one's opinion and trying to persuade others to go along with your opinion (which you have expressly stated is your hope). There's also a fine line between expressing one's opinion and referring to others tastes as garbage.You've clearly crossed by lines by magnitudes of miles. I truly believe you have no idea how deragotory, pretentious, and condescending your words read to other folks. Like you, I'm calling it as I see it.
You may have the last words. Your post history suggest aruging with you is a futile endeavor.
s
But peeing on your burns and wounds has been used for ages as the way of treatment.
a
.
For the life of me I can't connect a deviant like Belushi to myself... so I find your repeated "can't laugh at youself" so silly... he was a social moron, a drunk and a drug user, I believe I share none of those "qualities".So much of what I say to you, you don't understand, or choose not to.
Belushi is NOT like you. He is making fun OF you. THAT'S why you don't like him.
You say "who cares about his drug addiction"? Well, if you don't, then all I can tell you you should. Funny I have to tell that to a grown man.
So why was it ok For Bogart and Spencer Tracy to drink and smoke themselves to death? Actors addictions are as common as dirt. Show me an actor and I'll show you a drunk, a wife beater, a drug abuser- an addict of every stripe. Why single Belushi out? I don't care about Belushi's drug addiction any more than I care about WC Field's drinking or Errols Flynn's sex addiction. Nope, better not let your kids watch ANY movies if you're concerned with actors setting bad examples.
Regarding the sensitivity... look in the mirror again. I was just typing my thoughs after watching a particular film, you came out like Jack from the box, swinging wildly.
Go back and read your original post about Monster and how "American film is a culture of GARBAGE". Every day you come to this board and spout this sort of rubbish. When someone fights back, then you get all whiney and defensive. You can't have it both ways. I will give you back the same level that you give me.
I can't STAND when arrogant snobs like you spout quotes from things like Cyrano and then act superior because you don't think I know Cyrano. It's a perfect example of your uninformed assumptions about people that could possibly think Belushi is funny. Again, why can't an individual like both? Your closed minded highbrow arrogance is monumental.
You say you're concerned with America because you live here. Don't try and make it become the America of your skewed ideals. Part of American culture is that we embrace charachters like Belushi because he deflates pretension and higbrow snobishness. America is NOT about people spouting Cyrano references. It has NEVER been about people spouting Cyrano references. So don't try to create an America in YOUR image. America is what America is. Deal with it.
This is the funniest part. I agree with you about how Hollywood is over run by accountants, MBA's and brown nosing yes-men. Yes, the artists, the ones that are trying to make good movies are getting squeezed out on every side. But the difference is that I know that it has ALWAYS been that way in Hollywood. Your ideals about a Hollywood of the bygone days are false. Hollywood has ALWAYS been about business and money first. That anything of artistic worth comes out of the industry, both THEN and NOW is a miracle. Actually, I think that American cinema is pretty strong here in the first few years of the 21st Century, mainly because of a thriving independent film business working outside the Hollywood system.
You are obviously being irritated by my lack of concern with Belushi as you put it "laughing at me". Well, this is simple. Pigs always laugh at decent people. Pigs like Belushi also tent to die like pigs... and most decent people don't even notice that.Truth is, I go trough my life without any concern for what some low life moron thnks about my pursuit of trying to make something with my life, for my family and people around me.
You on the other hand, seem to be much in tune with his feelings. That is your choice.
The sorry truth is that Belushi the pig only was successful because people like you couldn't get enough of him.
I guess you two found each other.
About the drug/alcohol abuse in actors, etc. You are as clueless as ever. If you show me the Tracy film that turned anyone into an alcoholic, promoted drug use and moronic behavior, I will agree with you.
Your "hero", OTOH, promoted the drugs and pig life... see the diff? Probably not.
***Go back and read your original post about Monster and how "American film is a culture of GARBAGE".
If you want to comment on my posts then at least have the decency of quoting it right... don't be a cheap liar.
For the "quote" above you deserve to be called a liar.
And then you drop this bit of "wisdom":
"America is NOT about people spouting Cyrano references. It has NEVER been about people spouting Cyrano references."
I don't know whether to laugh or cry over your numb-headed line like that.
Perhaps you TRULY believe America is about living like pigs, like Belushi, and decaying alive. Then thank you, but somehow I managed to miss THAT America.
As far as your "recomendation" of what I should and should not be doing in America - you can perfectly stick it in your ear, as this is my county just as much as it is yours. If you want to live here like a pig, there is nothing I can do about it, but there are plenty of good people I care about.
Anyway, you will neither scare nor impress me with your escalating tone, but you can bore me at some point.
Your complete lack of any sense of humor or irony is stunning.Why is it OK for you to vilify Belushi in death, but it's not ok for him to poke fun of snobs like you in life? Why the double standard? Because you're better than him? It's obvious you think so, but you, regardless of all your education and worldlyness, are not. The roots of your arrogance are deep and obvious.
WRT the Spencer Tracy reference, I do understand and agree with the difference you point out, however, that doesn't take away from the fact that Tracy and Bogart both died because of their addictions, just as Belushi did.
Personally, I don't care if "Animal House" promoted debauchery (again, like it was the first movie or story to ever do that). If an individual has hany brains in their head, they can tell the difference between sensible behavior or not. No movie is going to make them smarter. If people have the tendency towards that lifestyle, they will do that, if they don't, they won't and no mere MOVIE is going to sway anyone's opinon.
You can say that I misquoted you if you like. If you read your original post, that "quote' I stuck in there certainly fits your tone and attitude. And it's no different than putting the words "Belushi is my hero" in my mouth in your post. You are well aware I never made any claim like that.
"America is NOT about people spouting Cyrano references. It has NEVER been about people spouting Cyrano references."
I don't know whether to laugh or cry over your numb-headed line like that.
Regardless of your emotional conundrum, the fact remains.
You can continue to use your book knowledge as a weapon of repression on those that are intimidated by it. It won't work with me. You're wrong to think that someone that enjoys a comedian like Belushi doesn't know or enjoy the classics too. It's called "perspective" and "balanced tastes". This balance, in all your overwhelming bias, is something which you have none of.
***Why is it OK for you to vilify Belushi in death, but it's not ok for him to poke fun of snobs like you in life? Why the double standard? Because you're better than him? It's obvious you think so, but you, regardless of all your education and worldlyness, are not.Oh boy... let me repeat what I already said once and then leave, unless you find something fresh to say. I told you I have no problem with him poking fun at me - I couldn't care less, as I have no respect for him.
I suggest you read my previous post as this has already been answered, but as I said, apparently you are not willing to accept my complete disregard for him and his "poking fun", you are still trying to convince me I should feel offended, insecure or sad...
Sorry to disappoint you... as I said, I have no reaction like that.
Will you finally get this simple message?
Am I a better person than a pig who created some of the most revolting characters and finally died like a pig? I would certainly HOPE so, but I will leave the final judgement to the creator.
says it all. Hollywood is no different now than it was in the past 100 years, pre Code and after, except for the demise of the studio system and advances in projection and sound. American films have always been accused of lowering moral standards, and this has occured in each decade since "The Great Train Robbery". And classic films, about 10-12 a year, have been produced all along.
Hollywood producers, like Shakepseare in Elizabethan England, are in the business of making money, unlike much of the state-supported film you admire (how ironic you love stuff which is produced in a manner which you despise!). Horrible bastards!
Of course, you choose to paint tinseltown as deviant-based entertainment, forgetting "Nemo," "LOTR," "American Splendor," "My Architect," and hundreds of others (not a rape or murder in sight in LIT, either).
Ok, Vic, we know you don't like Hollywood.
You like European films.
Your mind is closed.
You can no more appreciate most American art than an American can appreciate Japanese kabuki.
But consider this: art doesn't exist in a vacuum. This IS the most violent, drug-riddled country on earth. Should an artist ignore this?
Wrong, I do not dislike Hollywood. I dislike what it is presently doing. To you that might be the same, it is not to me.I don't like "European" films, I like GOOD films, whereever they come from, and as I stated in my response to Troy, I see the world outside the Hollywood, not some "Europe".
You are wrong agian... our kids MUST be tought to appreciate the Japanese Kabuki... guess what - it doesn't happen by itself, and if your time is taken with Animal House then so much less is left for other things in the world.
This IS unfortunately one of the most violent societies on Earth... and that is exactly why it even more wrong to make it even more violent and idiots-populated than it already is.
Things like the Animal House, Natural Born Killers and others like that do not exactly promote humanism and world view.
elite college snobs, like....W, for instance.
It was a comedy and a satire. If you didn't attend American college, or understand American views on sex at that time, I can understand your failure to appreciate it. It is really an hysterically funny film which has achieved cult status, appreciated by a wide-spectrum of folks.
"Animal House, which you obviously never saw..." He-he... must be soothing to be making silly statements like that. When you have nothing better to say, this will do.Saw it several times.
***It is really an hysterically funny film which has achieved cult status, appreciated by a wide-spectrum of folks.
Funny... you see that as an achievemt, as success... oh-ho... and I see that as its damnation.
It sure sounds to me like you were not much of a fan of the National Lampoon, the satire magazine responsible for Animal House (not Belushi). In fact, I'm willing to bet you never saw a copy of this magazine during the 70s or knew anything about the people who published it. If they hadn't picked him to play the part of the clown/slob in that movie, it would've been someone else. They wrote the stories upon which that movie was based ("Tales Of The Adelphian Lodge" first ran in 1975), and it was them & Sean Kelly who were mostly responsible for that movie being made, NOT Belushi. I don't see you mentioning the name of Douglas Kenney here? Chris Miller? I'm sorry, you're arguing nonsense because you don't like the guy up on the screen. I was reading Nat Lampoon in the 70s, were you? If you're going to tell me that THEY are responsible for some kind of degradation of American culture, I'd sure like to see you come up with some examples & back up yr argument with some facts. Oh, and as for the effect of the movie on children--it was, after all, rated 'R.'
***I was reading Nat Lampoon in the 70s, were you?Of course not. In the seventies I was reading Rousseau, Schopenhauer and Solzhenitsyn... ah, and some Rostand, but Troy already forbade me to mention his name.
So, first Troy trying to convince me America is not about quoting Cyrano, now you...
Thanks... I guess... for this wisdom.
NT!
In Vino Veritas
.
Did you read Kant's "Critique of Pure Reason" in the original German?
I don't recognize one name on that list, so I don't know if you're being facetious or whether or not you're trying to pass yrself off as an intellectual. Regardless, outside of the fact that I didn't ask you what you DID read, whatever it was you were reading clearly didn't enable you to understand satire when you see it; nor did it equip you with the ability to blame the correct party in a situation such as this where you find fault with a movie actor & blame him for 'creating' that which was actually created by others. Not sure how Troy's comment has anything do with this; seems to me it's more a case of you not having yr facts straight.Belushi was no saint & deserves criticism for his poor handling of his drug problem as well as his lack of professionalism on television programs & movie sets--but not only is he not guilty of the sins you are taking him to task for, you make yrself look idiotic by allowing yr dislike for him to project onto yr unjustly blaming him for as much as you do.
you yourself did not attend Harvard if indeed you do not recognize one name on the list.
Yeah, no kidding. But I'm willing to admit that, and I had the courage to admit I wasn't familiar with those names, too. Meanwhile, at least I know satire when I see it. And I don't argue bullsh*t when I don't have facts to back up my argument. I didn't require an Ivy League education to understand these things.
I know someone who graduated from Harward and who is, in terms of his cultural develepment, still living in the VERY Dark Ages.Education and culture are only remotely connected.
"I know someone who graduated from Harward and who is, in terms of his cultural develepment, still living in the VERY Dark Ages."Please donīt bring Mr. Bush here: thatīs what Outside is for...
Regards
BF
...you omit most of Africa and much of SE Asia and maybe half of South America.clark
PS Nice comeback to your accuser.
That didn't come out right.
For his high degree of sophistication else where, the USA is a violent country.
Nazi Germany? Stalinist Russia?
So I am living in Hollywood past?
...and now we are in the 21st century...Regards
BF
We were supposed to smart as a species in the 20th century too. The 20th Century was pretty dang sophisticated compared to any other time in human history, yet we continued to slaughter each other like crazed animals.Was the turn of the 21st Century some shing new age moment where that was going to stop?
Sadly, some things never change. Man's inhumanity to man is one of them.
In case you have forgotten which one it was, please compare the level of violence in the US to that in places like France, Germany, Sweden, Spain, Italy...: is it higher, or lower?Some valuable indicators could be percentage of violent deaths, percentage of people held in jail, percentage of assaults and rapes..., and so on.
Regards
BF
There was a time when some of those countries DID lead the world in violence. Everything cycles. It is America's time now as both the top dog empire AND as the most violent "civilized" country (note that many places in the world ARE currently much more violent however). It should be no surprise based on history that the 2 go hand in hand . . .My point is that it is an unfortunate inevitability of humanity that we are violent as a species.
***My point is that it is an unfortunate inevitability of humanity that we are violent as a species.OK, so that is your point, wrong as it is. However, you are choosing to ignore the scores of writers, philosophers, etc, people like R... oops, sorry, you will start crying again at my mentioning some names... anyway, some of those philosophers who believed the human beings could be made better, and should strive to be better... that humanism was something that separated us from animals.
People like Belushi, OTOH, promoted the return to animals instincts.
Oh well...more popcorn and Milk Duds for the rest of us.Take care, Chris
They understand that they have no problem getting production cash from investors . . and those investors want a return.Give an choice, the world's audience does not want to see "art" everytime the lights dim. And, we give them what they want--big budget, mindless entertainment.
Praise this country's maturing independent film industry. They are beginning to supply and create an audience for "art".
Don't lose sight that "art" is a developed taste and not a mandate of birthright.
nt
Western Europe, ...with Fritz Lang's masterpiece "M", his first sound film from the early 1930's (starring Peter Lorre).> > > "Garbage breeds garbage..." < < <
That's true of highfalutin "grey poupon" films as well. I've seen some European "garbage" that's just as bad or worse than anything Hollywood has to offer, and I actually DO like some European cinema.
BTW, labeling something as tasteful (i.e., more "human") doesn't necessarily make it better; it just means that someone may be suckered into paying to see it against their better judgment! If YOU like it, that's fine, but waxing poetic over a film one personally considers tasteful, or conversely, garbage, is entirely subjective. Another way of looking at it is that caviar may be held in higher esteem than a Big Mac because of it's target audience, but in the end it all processes out the same way!
I'm not saying that Kurosawa, Fellini, Bergman and even (grown) Tarkovsky aren't inspired directors, but if much of their work is perceived as pretentious and/or inaccessable and fails to connect with the masses, then why is that necessarily the masses' fault? Insulting the taste of folks who may prefer certain kinds of Hollywood films because you don't approve of the subject matter just makes you appear an out-of-touch curmudgeon.
AuPh
Insulting? No way! Elevate, if possible, yes!
I demonstrated a contriadiction in Victor's assertion; you did nothing to disprove it.AuPh
Well, I think Victor is able to do it himself if he want to...But you made so many mistakes, and I know that you feels it...That he may not be willing any more to do so.
I will always do.
Victor gives as good as he gets, and usually gets what he deserves. He also knows that I couldn't care less whether he responds because my soapbox is every bit as sturdy as his, and likewise, presented to an audience of more than just one individual. Big Vic also knows that it isn't personal; basicly we're just two rams butting heads ...although in his case, judging from the recent spate of "caca" posts, perhaps he enjoys "butts" more than movies! ;^)AuPh
You knew how to set the trap.
Perhaps we should just leave the ins and outs of this new alliance to arthouse diplomacy. ;^)AuPh
w
If it's good, it's good, we are not talking here in terms of primitive absolutes, but rather in terms of statistically significant differences.
I'm impressed with your essay.Observation: Film can be entertainment or art, sometimes both, sometimes neither. Hollywood's emphasis has always been on making films that make money, which often (always?) corrupts art.
I don't care for your aphorism that "Garbage breeds garbage"... I think the garbage label is overly-simplistic and insulting... but I agree in principle with what you're saying. If people vote with their dollars to see horror films, slasher films etc. Hollywood will produce more of the same as well as up the body count and gore. A sad reflection on both the social and moral decline of our culture. And how each generation becomes increasingly jaded and desensitized.
As far as you "draw(ing) my line around my home and shall not let scum penetrate it"... of course you must be selective. But, there are many films that do have the qualities that you look for that you might be missing in your dismissive attitude to all things Hollywood.
Concentrate on the positive, there are lots of underappreciated gems out there (from all countries).
Mo Yama (hopefully Yo Mama will remain sedated).
nt
Like Bergman in " Serpentīs Eggs ".
We are on our way.
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