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In Reply to: What Hollywood will never understand posted by Victor Khomenko on February 09, 2004 at 11:34:57:
Don't you ever get tired of spewing the same old rhetoric over and over again?We know you dislike American cinema. Near as I can tell, you dislike all American art. You think America has no art, has no class. Move on already!
Do you live in America? If you think America is such a cultural wasteland and culture is so important to you, why do you live here? It's not for the money, is it? Cuz, brother, you got a lot of nerve if it is.
Why do you insist on trashing a film (Monster) which you have not even seen? Where do you get off with this supreme arrogance?
Do you think that the attraction of anti-social characters is a purely American thing? Euro history and literature is FULL of deviants, killers and degenerates.
Why is it that if you don't like it, it's always garbage? Who made you the final arbiter of taste? Belushi and the 3 Stooges were geniuses. You're too much of a still to get it. You're the people they were making fun of and it galls you.
So why do you come to this BB every day whining the same old litany, over and over again? Do you honestly think you can sway people's opinions with this euro-eliteism?
You're just wrong on SO many counts here it's simply ludicrous.
Follow Ups:
Hi Troy,Let me answer this question first. Why Do I live here? Because I could no longer take the type of the close-minded, rigid, mindset as the one you are displaying here, that was prevailing where I used to live.
If you would like to continue along the lines of this question, you are welcome to come to the Outside, where I will tell you everything as it is, with kids not listening.
A couple of interesting observations regarding your post.
First - your equating Hollywood with American art. I really dunno what forces apparently intelligent people to make big blanders like that.
I would submit to you that George Innes and Gershvin have just a tiny bit more to do with American art than your beloved Hollywood.
Making off-the-wall and far-out remarks like that surely does little to enhance one's position.
So you love Belushi - no, I am not even going to repeat that "genius" statement.
OK, that is your choice. But let me submit to you that if our kids learned just a little bit less about food fights, orgies and crushing beer can on their forhead, and just a tiny bit more about math, they would not score they way they tend to score in the international tests - well behind all developed and not-so-developed countries.
But you may remain proud of that part of our heritage.
To say the Euro culture is full of deviants is easy, until one take time at the ROLES those deviants play there, and the relative proportion of such creations in the overall volume of culture.
Even more interesting is the fact that you also apparently equate Hollywood with American films. As others and myself have already indicated here, there is plenty of interesting life outside Hollywood... you might check that out.
Furthermore... my euro-elitism... let me break this news to you: last time I checked Japan was not a part of Europe... it was a part of a thing I would call WORLD. Ditto for Brazil, Mexico, Korea, Vietnam, India and a few other places, most of which a typical American student can't find on a map.
America is still just a small part of that beautiful world, and if one is over-concentrating on Belushi, he is boud to miss that.
Anyway, going back to my original premise - I do believe that Hollywood started and led the trend towards the dehumanization of the movie art, and in that trend it has gone far too far, and we are fortunate that many other places have fallen behind it in that trend, or we would not have many, many beautiful works of art produced elsewhere... in "Europe" by your definition, in the "rest of the world" by mine... things like the Sea is Watching that I discussed last night.
So I truly believe the problem is not with me, but with the closed minds of people like you.
> I would submit to you that George Innes and Gershvin have just a tiny bit more to do with American art than your beloved Hollywood.That's a matter of opinion that cannot be 'proven' one way or another; and in fact I have a feeling many, if not most, would disagree with you on this. You've got an easy answer waiting, though: you can blame it on the degradation of American culture.
> if our kids learned just a little bit less about food fights, orgies and crushing beer can on their forhead, and just a tiny bit more about math
Give me a break, please. You're sounding to me like someone who is not aware that the National Lampoon was founded by people who wrote for the Harvard Lampoon. That's right, Harvard . One of these was one of the men MOST responsible for 'Animal House'--Douglas Kenney. He was one of the original founders of the National Lampoon. To attend Harvard, I do believe, you have to be at least marginally educated. That you claim to have seen Animal House several times means little, since the point seems lost on you. It's a satirical look at college fraternity life, meant to poke fun at the people who did the sorts of things that Belushi did in that movie, not to celebrate them. Belushi's character gets expelled , which is a lot more believable than the success his character is said to achieve later on. The sensibility of the National Lampoon seems completely lost on you. That's okay, most of the rest of the country didn't get it, either.
You're castigating Belushi, which is something I could do to the Marx Brothers if I decided I didn't like the political comedy of, say, 'Duck Soup,' and I wanted to pick on the off-screen problems that Chico Marx endured in his lifetime. Was he a 'social moron' for his gambling problems any less than Belushi was for his drug problems? Belushi met with the President of the United States, did Marx? Belushi was also a guy who went out of his way, in every way possible, to educate his audience about the music he loved. Social moron, indeed. Take a good look at the resumes of the players that were hired for the various Blues Brothers projects, and try to get an idea of how unknown they & their music were at the time. Then go back & look at the things you've said about a guy who brought a wealth of forgotten music to the masses, and in fact had woefully underappreciated players performing for larger audiences than many of them had ever played before. This was Belushi's doing.
> a pig who created some of the most revolting characters
What characters did he create that you had such a problem with? He did NOT create the character he played in Animal House, nor was it all that much of an exaggeration on an earlier incarnation of that same character, who went under a different name, in Chris Miller's 1975 'Adelphian Lodge' story. If you have a problem with the character he played in the Blues Brothers, then you're getting into a musical realm in which I'm going to have a VERY LARGE problem with anything you have to say about that character, which did a great deal for blues music in this country during a time when it was all but forgotten. Even that character had been spun off from a 'Bees' sketch on one of the very first episodes of 'Saturday Night Live,' prior to the show even being known under that particular name. Belushi did not create the Bee character; he hated it, in fact. And I'm not even sure whether or not the Blues character was completely his, either. Are you?
> I do believe that Hollywood started and led the trend towards the dehumanization of the movie art
Fine. So start a boycott then. Belushi was an actor, not a producer, director, or much of a writer, to the best of my knowledge. A comic actor, for the most part. If you know where he bankrolled any of the projects he appeared in or was responsible for pictures you didn't like getting made, then I stand corrected. Otherwise, I would suggest that you turn yr attention towards the people who were actually responsible for Belushi having made it to the big screen, for surely they deserve more blame than he. It was their decision to use him, not his, and in projects such as Animal House where he had little creative input. I'm actually quite surprised you'd reserve this much venom for a guy who is only marginally responsible for most of what you're blaming him for.
***> I would submit to you that George Innes and Gershvin have just a tiny bit more to do with American art than your beloved Hollywood.
***That's a matter of opinion that cannot be 'proven' one way or another; and in fact I have a feeling many, if not most, would disagree with you on this.Thank you... I think you made your point loud and clear.
Not ONE word about Belushi or Animal House, huh? Oh, and by the way, it wasn't 'Animal House,' it was ' National Lampoon's Animal House.' A distinction completely lost on you. You're not even willing to take responsibility for yr words, are you? I wonder how you'd feel if YOU were unjustly criticized, as you've done here, by someone who didn't have his facts straight, as you didn't. I really do.
... I get it... it is not Animal House, no... it is National Lampoon's Animal House....Thanks! That changes everything.
See, I did put some words on Animal House in this post.
Seriously, I like really don't know what to add to all this.
Enjoy.
...it is helpful if you have all yr facts in order. Yr real point of the thread was an attack on Hollywood. In doing so you said some very choice things about John Belushi which were not true, and, as I pointed out, reflective more of yr own personal dislike for him than anything having to do with the issues at hand. What if I agreed with yr basic overall premise? I would have to be dismayed that yr points are captive to emotion rather than reason, and I would be forced to the conclusion that you do yr point more harm than good by speaking of that which you clearly do not know. Sort of like what Michael Moore does when it comes to lefty political ideals.Oh, and by the way, it helps when you're willing to admit that you were mistaken, if not wrong.
I see you as the rigid and closed minded one, without a doubt. Unlike you, I can enjoy both quality films from outside the US and US made films, even ones from Hollywood. I can enjoy gross and juvenile comedies or warm human stories, regardless of where they are from.On the other hand, YOU can only enjoy 3rd world films where all the characters are "real" and the story is a slice of life that revels in the local customs, regional charm and "human warmth".
I'm sure this Czech movie you mention is nice, it's received some excellent press. But just because this is the only type of film YOU deem worthy of your time does not mean it's the only type of film that everyone else does.
Every movie is not art. It makes no pretentions of being art. It's supposed to be entertainment. Everyone's idea of what entertainment is does not line up with your limited view.
What I'm saying is, why can't I like Autumn Spring AND Animal House?
Am I proud of Belushi and the Stooges? You better believe it. Because they skewer pompous and arrogant snobs like you. You simply can't laugh at someone making fun of you, so typical of the self-appointed cultural elite. If you can't laugh at yourself, you can't laugh at anything else either.
Regardless of your or my position on the matter, your constant harping on these matters is tedious at best. We all know you hate Hollywood and American film (unless it's some little indie film) already. Every time you make a post about something you like, you persist in mentioning how bad modern Hollywood films are. Talk about something else.
...self-centered, provincial, and ignorant?Sure you donīt understand why, do you?
Amused regards
BF
...how exactly does John Belushi skewer me.As far as I can tell, the idiot died a horrible dog's death, much in line with his "art"... and I am still around.
Who's exactly is getting the last laugh, Troy?
As far as your line that what I consider the majority of the world's movies is actually just the... lesse... ah, yes... "3rd world films" - well I have already responded to that bit of wisdom... the narrow America-centric viewpoint...
Why would someone discard the whole of Europe and Japan as "3rd world" is beyond me...
Perhaps our education system is in far bigger trouble than I realize?
s
Why do you have to get "the last laugh" on Belushi? Why does his comedy hurt you so that you need to say things like that? This vindictiveness must stem form your feeling personally insulted by the comedian. Again, you can't laugh at yourself, you supercilious little man.Who cares about his drug addictions? As though other artists all over the world have not had their own addictions through history! It's common with many artists, I think because of their boredom with the mundane people and the repressions of the regular world around them.
The 3rd world comment: You and orejones are so dang sensitive! You guys are so easily baited.
You can tell me how narrow-minded and America-centric I am, but you're wrong. Like I've said since the first time I've communicated with you. I watch foregin films all the time. And I watch American films. You don't see me coming in here every day and bashing French cinema, do you? Victor, YOU are the one that comes in here every day spouting the same old snobbish diatribe on Hollywood and American movies. Give the daily America bashing a rest. We got it the first 300 times. It has become extremely repetitive and boring. Stop biting the hand that feeds you.
...that Victor is *not* little.
You, on the other hand, have now reduced yourself to insults.Perhaps it would help you to know, that V. *particularly* hates it when someone here -- you'll know who I mean -- lauds stuff like Return to the Planet of the Apes, or Star Wars 1/2/-.
*I*, however, can enjoy Pirates of the Caribbean, Open Range etc. as excellent pastimes while still finding myself being moved more deeply by, say, Black Orpheus, Nights of Cabiria, Wild Strawberries, Grand Illusion, Yojimbo etc.
clark
Troy, I grew up with John Belushi -- lived close by, we went to the Wheaton Central High School together. I followed his career closely, have seen all his movies and watched him perform many times at Second City. He WAS a great artist and he DID die a terrible death, but I would never label him an "idiot" as Victor has. A drug addiction is a terrible thing and he deserves sympathy and not ridicule. I'm glad you can see him through the pain of his addiction and recognize him for his comedic genius he truly was.
!
YOU started the rather idiotic line of him "skewing" me, so eat your lumps and your words now, do not whine... BIG man.I do despise people like him because they DO have PROFOUND negative effect on our children. When you or tin fall all over yourself watching his idiotic escapades - that is your business, but you should have eyes enough to see that the social morons like Belushi do promote and create more anti-social deviants.
For the life of me I can't connect a deviant like Belushi to myself... so I find your repeated "can't laugh at youself" so silly... he was a social moron, a drunk and a drug user, I believe I share none of those "qualities". And I am saying this not as some prude - we all had our wild days.
But I DO see the conenction between him and many others, that's for sure, and that's regrettable.
You say "who cares about his drug addiction"? Well, if you don't, then all I can tell you you should. Funny I have to tell that to a grown man.
Regarding the sensitivity... look in the mirror again. I was just typing my thoughs after watching a particular film, you came out like Jack from the box, swinging wildly.
Some of your statements were indefensible, and you got nailed for them. Leak your wounds and move on.
Regarding my concern with Hollywood... darn right I am concerned: this is my country and it hurts me to see it slide in some areas, its culture being one of them.
You apparently don't share that concern, whatever comes your way is fine, I refuse to take that "whatever".
That is why I vote with my dollars, and that is why I tell others about that, hoping more people will stop patronizing the garbage.
A fight in vain? Should I repeat here again the words of Cyrano? I am sure you can figure that out... right?
If I was living in Spain, Russia or Zanzibar, my prime concern would be with the culture of Spain, Russia, Zanzibar... but the US is my home and feel I must try to make it a better place, not accept people like Belushi as the best this land can produce.
.... trying to espouse onto others your personal preferences and ethics. It's terribly annoying that you persistently refer to films the masses enjoy as garbage - as if you were some annoited authority appointed to stem the degredation of culture (in light of what you've written, "ethics" is actually a better word then "culture").
I will keep calling them as I see it, and you will have the choice of either reading my posts or ignoring them.Interestingly, I do not divide films into those for "masses" and those for... for... I dunno... elite, perhaps? What would be your word here? Some require more education and preparation to be appreciated - but education is hardly what separates the masses from the elite.
I simply watch all kinds of films - as I mentioned before, most of them the not so good films on American cable - and state my opinions on them. If you find my opinions interesting for whatever reason - read them, otherwise...
I am shocked, shocked! to discover that you equate expression of personal opinion with espousing onto others my personal preferences. For instance, I don't like NPR, so I simply ignore it.
You can always find conflicting opinions in this group, so you are hardly forced to read my posts, let alone to be forced to do anything by them.
What I CAN promise you is that I am NOT gonna start giving any special allowances to any country or studio or director... I think this is the only fair way of doing this.
On a personal note - I wish more people contributed to this group. But we had periods here with five posts per week, so it seems. So if you have an opinion on something you liked or disliked, please post it.
BTW - the great majority of films that I wrote about here are not some super-sophisticated creations that take tons of education to appreciate - most of them are rather simple stories, except made well. So in essence they are movies for the "masses" - see, I even used that word here.
There's a fine line between expressing one's opinion and trying to persuade others to go along with your opinion (which you have expressly stated is your hope). There's also a fine line between expressing one's opinion and referring to others tastes as garbage.You've clearly crossed by lines by magnitudes of miles. I truly believe you have no idea how deragotory, pretentious, and condescending your words read to other folks. Like you, I'm calling it as I see it.
You may have the last words. Your post history suggest aruging with you is a futile endeavor.
s
But peeing on your burns and wounds has been used for ages as the way of treatment.
a
.
For the life of me I can't connect a deviant like Belushi to myself... so I find your repeated "can't laugh at youself" so silly... he was a social moron, a drunk and a drug user, I believe I share none of those "qualities".So much of what I say to you, you don't understand, or choose not to.
Belushi is NOT like you. He is making fun OF you. THAT'S why you don't like him.
You say "who cares about his drug addiction"? Well, if you don't, then all I can tell you you should. Funny I have to tell that to a grown man.
So why was it ok For Bogart and Spencer Tracy to drink and smoke themselves to death? Actors addictions are as common as dirt. Show me an actor and I'll show you a drunk, a wife beater, a drug abuser- an addict of every stripe. Why single Belushi out? I don't care about Belushi's drug addiction any more than I care about WC Field's drinking or Errols Flynn's sex addiction. Nope, better not let your kids watch ANY movies if you're concerned with actors setting bad examples.
Regarding the sensitivity... look in the mirror again. I was just typing my thoughs after watching a particular film, you came out like Jack from the box, swinging wildly.
Go back and read your original post about Monster and how "American film is a culture of GARBAGE". Every day you come to this board and spout this sort of rubbish. When someone fights back, then you get all whiney and defensive. You can't have it both ways. I will give you back the same level that you give me.
I can't STAND when arrogant snobs like you spout quotes from things like Cyrano and then act superior because you don't think I know Cyrano. It's a perfect example of your uninformed assumptions about people that could possibly think Belushi is funny. Again, why can't an individual like both? Your closed minded highbrow arrogance is monumental.
You say you're concerned with America because you live here. Don't try and make it become the America of your skewed ideals. Part of American culture is that we embrace charachters like Belushi because he deflates pretension and higbrow snobishness. America is NOT about people spouting Cyrano references. It has NEVER been about people spouting Cyrano references. So don't try to create an America in YOUR image. America is what America is. Deal with it.
This is the funniest part. I agree with you about how Hollywood is over run by accountants, MBA's and brown nosing yes-men. Yes, the artists, the ones that are trying to make good movies are getting squeezed out on every side. But the difference is that I know that it has ALWAYS been that way in Hollywood. Your ideals about a Hollywood of the bygone days are false. Hollywood has ALWAYS been about business and money first. That anything of artistic worth comes out of the industry, both THEN and NOW is a miracle. Actually, I think that American cinema is pretty strong here in the first few years of the 21st Century, mainly because of a thriving independent film business working outside the Hollywood system.
You are obviously being irritated by my lack of concern with Belushi as you put it "laughing at me". Well, this is simple. Pigs always laugh at decent people. Pigs like Belushi also tent to die like pigs... and most decent people don't even notice that.Truth is, I go trough my life without any concern for what some low life moron thnks about my pursuit of trying to make something with my life, for my family and people around me.
You on the other hand, seem to be much in tune with his feelings. That is your choice.
The sorry truth is that Belushi the pig only was successful because people like you couldn't get enough of him.
I guess you two found each other.
About the drug/alcohol abuse in actors, etc. You are as clueless as ever. If you show me the Tracy film that turned anyone into an alcoholic, promoted drug use and moronic behavior, I will agree with you.
Your "hero", OTOH, promoted the drugs and pig life... see the diff? Probably not.
***Go back and read your original post about Monster and how "American film is a culture of GARBAGE".
If you want to comment on my posts then at least have the decency of quoting it right... don't be a cheap liar.
For the "quote" above you deserve to be called a liar.
And then you drop this bit of "wisdom":
"America is NOT about people spouting Cyrano references. It has NEVER been about people spouting Cyrano references."
I don't know whether to laugh or cry over your numb-headed line like that.
Perhaps you TRULY believe America is about living like pigs, like Belushi, and decaying alive. Then thank you, but somehow I managed to miss THAT America.
As far as your "recomendation" of what I should and should not be doing in America - you can perfectly stick it in your ear, as this is my county just as much as it is yours. If you want to live here like a pig, there is nothing I can do about it, but there are plenty of good people I care about.
Anyway, you will neither scare nor impress me with your escalating tone, but you can bore me at some point.
Your complete lack of any sense of humor or irony is stunning.Why is it OK for you to vilify Belushi in death, but it's not ok for him to poke fun of snobs like you in life? Why the double standard? Because you're better than him? It's obvious you think so, but you, regardless of all your education and worldlyness, are not. The roots of your arrogance are deep and obvious.
WRT the Spencer Tracy reference, I do understand and agree with the difference you point out, however, that doesn't take away from the fact that Tracy and Bogart both died because of their addictions, just as Belushi did.
Personally, I don't care if "Animal House" promoted debauchery (again, like it was the first movie or story to ever do that). If an individual has hany brains in their head, they can tell the difference between sensible behavior or not. No movie is going to make them smarter. If people have the tendency towards that lifestyle, they will do that, if they don't, they won't and no mere MOVIE is going to sway anyone's opinon.
You can say that I misquoted you if you like. If you read your original post, that "quote' I stuck in there certainly fits your tone and attitude. And it's no different than putting the words "Belushi is my hero" in my mouth in your post. You are well aware I never made any claim like that.
"America is NOT about people spouting Cyrano references. It has NEVER been about people spouting Cyrano references."
I don't know whether to laugh or cry over your numb-headed line like that.
Regardless of your emotional conundrum, the fact remains.
You can continue to use your book knowledge as a weapon of repression on those that are intimidated by it. It won't work with me. You're wrong to think that someone that enjoys a comedian like Belushi doesn't know or enjoy the classics too. It's called "perspective" and "balanced tastes". This balance, in all your overwhelming bias, is something which you have none of.
***Why is it OK for you to vilify Belushi in death, but it's not ok for him to poke fun of snobs like you in life? Why the double standard? Because you're better than him? It's obvious you think so, but you, regardless of all your education and worldlyness, are not.Oh boy... let me repeat what I already said once and then leave, unless you find something fresh to say. I told you I have no problem with him poking fun at me - I couldn't care less, as I have no respect for him.
I suggest you read my previous post as this has already been answered, but as I said, apparently you are not willing to accept my complete disregard for him and his "poking fun", you are still trying to convince me I should feel offended, insecure or sad...
Sorry to disappoint you... as I said, I have no reaction like that.
Will you finally get this simple message?
Am I a better person than a pig who created some of the most revolting characters and finally died like a pig? I would certainly HOPE so, but I will leave the final judgement to the creator.
says it all. Hollywood is no different now than it was in the past 100 years, pre Code and after, except for the demise of the studio system and advances in projection and sound. American films have always been accused of lowering moral standards, and this has occured in each decade since "The Great Train Robbery". And classic films, about 10-12 a year, have been produced all along.
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