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In Reply to: How about a specialty forum for American or English language films? posted by Dalton on March 14, 2004 at 23:31:48:
d
Follow Ups:
... generally, most people don't hang around in places where they are needlessly attacked, ignored, or disdained for their unworthy taste for "kaka" movies. Like it or not, there is a small group here that creates an atmosphere that drives many away after a few posts. "Hollywood" or "American" are commonly accepted here as derogatory descriptions in a way that simply wouldn't be tolerated if, instead, the terms "foreign" or "French" were used pejoratively.A request for a separate forum isn't an attempt to stifle "democracy" as Patrick so inelegantly suggests. Nor is it "Stalinist" - as someone with, perhaps, an intimate knowledge of Soviet tyranny proposed. There are some people who can listen to and enjoy both Beethoven and The Beatles and recognize that both forms of music have merit. There are others, who in their intolerance, not only can't respect you if you don't listen daily to Shostakovich's 8th symphony to put yourself in the right mood, but will scoff if you don't listen to the proper interpretation. On vinyl, preferably 78s...
Whether you "give a damn" what they think or not, who bothers to hang around such people?
both the people who don't like American films are obviously not from American or English speaking first countries. So technically Hollywood or English language films are foreign to them and they don't get it.People bring their own baggage and life to films. To properly understand the black humour of a Fargo, Pulp Fiction, American Beauty it helps if you have a background from the country. Dawn of the Dead's commentary on consumerism would not work on someone who has never seen nor heard of a mall nor knows anything about American Consumerism. American Beauty is precisely about consumerism in American Suburbia. I can relate to Lester in a lot of ways because on onehand I lived and saw it daily. If your background differes you don't get it and seems like a shallow take on a few themes mixed together. Pulp Fiction SHOULD be a laugh riot all the way through...people took it seriously???
I happen to be from Canada. Hero's in a lot of Canadian literary novels are anti-heros - the sort of people who don't really know who they are or where they are int he world who struggle through to find happiness. Totally different than the larger than life heros written in the US where people know their roots even if it's just been drilled into their head.
There is absolutely nothing better about foreign films. In the US and Canada we get the vvery best foreign films provided to our video stores. The top 5% of all the films made outside North America. The odd one is outstanding. We see ALL the Hollywood films and yes 95% of it is dreadful...but we don't get the filtration process.
To say Hollywood doesn't make good movies is just a moronic statement from no nothing dim-bulbs. So you don't need to convince them they are beyond rational thought. So either they are A) stupid or B) anti-American or C) Or they just understand the films from their countries better because they can relate better to the subject matter. I'll give C as the reason for the benefit of doubt. But I'm new on this film foreign so we'll see if it turns out to be A and B.
For instance there are three Canadian films, Margaret's Museum, Maelstrom, and Emporte Moi that I may get a lot more out of being from Canada than even American or Briton would get. Perhaps someone from France would understand or appreciate the magnitude of Germinal.
Then there are films like Run Lola Run which seem to have a good deal of crossover, largely because the story is very simple but effectively told with high energy.
America is in many ways a BIG LOUD country with big loud stories to tell. They are grande stories. How does France make an Apollo 13. What the hell has France ever done on a large scale? you want to tell a compelling story about a historical event like Appollo 13 how are you going to make it?
You're going to go out and have to spend big bucks with a lot of technical proweass and try and re-create what happened. I wasn't the biggest fan of this film but it's awfully difficult to make a film like this to appeal to people outside the US culture(though it did well outside the US). What can France make? Small personal introspective stories. Ditto for Canada. The government has to sponsor films here and help put up the money to get things done. The English Patient had to get several countries involved to get it done.
The film Spider was stalled trying to fincance it. They didn't pay the stars...they had to wait until after it was made before they can take money.
Ralph Fiennes has done that several times with the English Patient, Oscar and Lucinda, Sunshine and now Spider. Films are turned down due to financing problems so he goes out and makes a Red Dragon and Maid in Manhatten so he can use the money to actually get something he really wants to do made.
The one downside Hollywood films tend to have is that they fall into repetitive formulae. You get the same story 9 times a year every year, year in year out. A proven formulae means a proven product and a proven money maker. It's the McDonald's movie - the McMovie I call them.
Nothing wrong with the odd McMovie but a steady diet will give you Diabetes.
Frankly, LotR was kaka and I've said so on numerous occasions, and been attacked for that. So, maybe I don't like New Zealand film-making, I can live with it.And I've said I enjoyed Pirates of the C. and been attacked for *that*. There's no justice.
But man do I love those 78s! You people have no idea how great they can sound, because you judge them by transcriptions on tinkly LPs and edgy CDs.
Likewise I try not to judge a movie -- either way -- after seeing it on tape or DVD. Those are not the theatrical experiences everyone involved in film-making intends us to have.
clark
You have a real strong point1 I long want to have a discussion on how TAPES or DVD´s transfigure the director intend.
I'll stick with DVDs because I hate tapes. I think that a properly transferred film to DVD in the correct aspect ratio with sound as intended (i.e., mono, stereo, surround in its many incarnations) shown on a calibrated wide screen home theater can achieve what the director intended as much as seeing it in a theater with screechy sound, underlit screens, incorrect aspect ratio, noisy audience, etc.
However, the very best theaters provide the best viewing experience.
You won't be so sanguine after you start seeing high-rez DVDs, coming soon.clark
Viewer convenience.
a
There are several levels to this, clark.You keep telling us only a theater experience counts... I don't think so. Just like not only a symphony hall experience applies to music, the movies CAN be enjoyed in many forms.
You DO have a stereo system... I believe. Don't tell me it sounds like Carnegie Hall.
So I don't understand your hard nose attitude towards home videos.
Most people can never see most good films in their natural environment. There is no art movie theater here - within 100 miles, at least. I can catch some recent good films, but not old ones, and certainly no obscure things.
Given the choice of not seeing many fine films, or seeing them at home I do not hesitate renting a DVD.
Does one get full experience, as intended by the director, in his home environment?
Well, one can come close.
But this is the area where one can be tolerant. I know many people who can listen to Beethoven on a small radio and get more out of it than many "audiophiles" on their Grande systems, or many concert goers. The ability to appreciate fine things is internal, and it transcends the poor media quality... well, to some degree.
In addition, we are getting closer to the theater experience with our large screen installations.
s
Link my post as a reply.
But I post for a new discussion above. Maybe you an make your point. I will too.
were made of shellac, except for those issued at the very end.
Actually WE get ALL the " Heat " for not loving the kind of LOTR is!
That is ridiculous.
I am more " elegant " as you ever will be.
Well, the reason people laugh at your proposal is because it is based in dillusion, not reality.While it is somewhat true that the term Hollywood has taken (rightly so) a deregatory meaning, there is no such association for the word American. So your statement is simply a forced untrue one.
Second, you keep beating the drum of lies by dropping - frankly - idiotic (let me blant here) - notions: things along the lines of the movie language, the subs, some mysterious "Art Houses", etc, etc, etc. Fact is none of that matters to many here, myself and Patrick included.
I feel almost silly blowing holes in your near-lies, but as I stated many times, there would be 20 to 30 American films on my Best 100 list. And I feel that represents an extremely balanced view, given how much more does the world as the whole have to offer.
Your argument about Beethoven vs. Beatles shows a complete lack of perspective. Both are great. I listen to both, and I also watch many films from many genre's and countries - but while you tend to divide them based on the place of origin, I divide them by quality.
So I will watch and love a good American film just as much as a good Finish one, and I will gladly call a French film kaka when it deserves it - had doen it many times.
So all in all I am greatly disappointed a grown man could stoop to such whining - completely unnecessary for sure, when all one needs to do is simply talk about what touches him.
I had films I love slammed here many times - such is life in the subjective art field. Should I start complaining at the endless "plotless art house crap" labels? They don't bother me, and I suggest you get the right perspective too.
So I am sorry, but that complaint of yours is not getting me concerned at all.
There is ONE way of making this place better and more interesting one - to make sure more people post - and PASSIONATELY - about what they love and hate.
THAT will have good effect. Whine will not.
Why Victor did you hide the fact that you work for the KGB?
Or were you the one with the whip in the Gulag?
nt
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