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In Reply to: Re: Good Hollywood movies/what happened? posted by patrickU on March 16, 2004 at 08:52:54:
"How so? Ok.
The movie start with some kind of bravour, but after a while it fails to develop any characters"You couldn't be furhter from the truth. The arc that Russel Crowe's character takes is epic. He goes from victorious general and favorite of the king to a slave to a favorite of the crowds in the games to the tragic hero. There was trmendous character development there. Lets look at Juaquine Phoenix's character. A very complex character that unfolds as a simple evil child of the king to a shrewd leader with a successful plan to bulster Romes self esteem to a complex intelegent person who was damaged beyond repair by his fathers expressions of dissatisfatcion. Lets look at Oliver Reed's character. A common slave owner at first glance with a rich history as a gladiator who won his freedom and a very human place in his heart for the plight of Russel Crow's character. So much so that he is willing to make the ultimate sacrifice.
"it just has no deeph,"
It is rich with depth as these characters stories are unfolded as they interact in the plot.
" you know from start on till the end what direction it will takes, just like on a trail,"
That is the nature of tragedies. Would you make the same complaint of Hamlet?
" no sub plot, just straight on."
Plenty of sub plots. The relationship between Juaquine Phoenix and his sister, The revelation of his relationship to his father. The revelation of the life Russel Crowe's character lived before the Empire took his own home country. That is just to name a few of them.
"A little of " Ben Hur " ( the love / hate relationship ) and " Braveheart " ( loss of familly )'You make these things sound trivial.
"Short but I think, precise.
PS: And the terrible Digital artifacts!!!!! ( colosseum ) Like the ship " Titanic this kind of images will grow older more that you think, and will definitvely spoil the few good parts of both of them."
I agree with this but many films have suffered the shortcomings of poor visual effects.
Follow Ups:
To Maximus dog?
Was it killed ( must have been is it not ) but no scene on it...Oh poor movie goers that would not be able to cope with the death of.
Hollywood just lack any kind of integrity.
This example show us the way it concept was. A video clip. Thousand of different things and in the end..a bucket of rain.
So far between you and Victor we have a wrong sword and a missing dog as evidence that this movie is terrible. No discussion of any points I have made on character development and story structure. I can see why you guys would rather just say movies are kaka. That seems to be the best you can offer.
It was only meant as a symbol. And in the case of the dog it just shows what the intention of the director is.
Even the most missguided ones. I therefore applaud you on your deep study of that completely insignificant item - I presume it took far more effort that delving into something good.Would it be right to assume that only a severe hunger for "character development" thingy would cause one seek it in the Gladiator?
Did you know there were other, a bit more, shall we say, advanced, films that might offer even more interesting case studies than the Maximus?
"Even the most missguided ones. I therefore applaud you on your deep study of that completely insignificant item - I presume it took far more effort that delving into something good."Isn't it ironic that you now find your only critique of the movie of substance to be insignificant in the end. I agree. Did you rrealize you were commenting on your own critique?
"Would it be right to assume that only a severe hunger for "character development" thingy would cause one seek it in the Gladiator?"You have yet to be right about anything so far with the possible exception of the sword. Which, as you now seem to see, is trivial.
"Did you know there were other, a bit more, shall we say, advanced, films that might offer even more interesting case studies than the Maximus?"
Sure. But it isn't all or nothing propostion. Patrick suggested that there was no character development in Gladiator. when I pointed out several examples of character development in the movie (by the way that is what is known as arguing about something of substance. I actually talked about the content of the movie. You might want to try it sometime) Patrick dismised it as lacking meat. Rhetoric without support at best. In fact it was a case of backpeddling when caught in an obvious objective error. More back peddling followed. No, I don't think Gladfiator is the last word in character development but it isn't lacking either.
Well thatīs a poor man development of character. And that is THE problem, people get used to be satisfy than less than nothing. It is just flesh without real meat, only a layout.
Look forward to discuss some Italian films from Sica to Fellini or Bergman, take your pick!
Next you'll tell me Guido in 8 et 1/2 was fully developed. I've seen tits on Penguins more developed than Fellini's Guido...and hell it was about himself.
Very shortly I wrote on this film that at the moment it did come out I did NOT like it ( Too young I was, I may think ) I will have to have a second view at it.
You see one of the problem is nobody knows each other very well, and on the short comment one may do on a theme a lot of miss... may happen.
You don't need to be older. Certainly, to appreciate the life of Bill Murray's character in Lost in Translation it would help if you had life experiences.You don't need to be convinced by other people as to what is good or not. Occasionally I see a film a second time and I like it a lot more. Sometimes like the movie Crash it's crap the first time and crap the second time.
Of course you do ( need to be older ) at the time I may have been 18 or so, I did not have the maturity of a man and even so not the experiences to understand .
For Lost in... yes and for 8 1/2 not?
The only personn that can convince me is..me. But if someone that I respect told me "worth a second though"..I damn will.
Well thatīs a poor man development of character. And that is THE problem, people get used to be satisfy than less than nothing.First you say there was no character development then when I point out that there is a substantial amount of character develoment you now call it "poor man's character development." What was wrong with the character development in the context of the story arc in Gladiator. I thought it was complex, human and revealed in an artistic and telling manner within the unfolding of the plot lines.
" It is just flesh without real meat, only a layout."
How so? What was lacking? Real meat is just a metaphor but for what?
Look forward to discuss some Italian films from Sica to Fellini or Bergman, take your pick!That may be intersting.
No contradiction! A poor man development IS actually no character develoment!
You thought because you may have been abused from all this pseudo glamour of the last thirty years of movie decadence.
But let get us concrete.
Buy or steal " The bicycle Thief " if you have not seen it already, and let us discuss it.
You will see what has been concealed and what has been revealed to you.
I am waiting to hear forward from you.Patrick
"No contradiction! A poor man development IS actually no character develoment!"Given the fact that i cited the development of several characters in that movie you are simply objectively wrong.
"You thought because you may have been abused from all this pseudo glamour of the last thirty years of movie decadence."I'm not sure what you are trying to say but it looks like you think you can read my mind. You can't. Care to cite any objective arguments against any of my points rather than waving your hands about psuedo glamour? So far your arguments have been nothing but posturing. How about a little of that "meat" you claim is so lacking in the movies you trash?
"But let get us concrete."That would be a breath of fresh air.
"Buy or steal " The bicycle Thief " if you have not seen it already, and let us discuss it.
You will see what has been concealed and what has been revealed to you."I'm sorry but movies stand or fall on their own merits. So far you have not actually discussed the merits of Gladiator.
"I am waiting to hear forward from you."OK
This film is empty and ridiculous ( beside note that the pictures can be fascinating ) the spoken words are to make you cry, or laughing, that was the case for me.
And you donīt see that, I am at pain to be able to do more.
I mean I did see this film long ago and it is not worse to be a never ending story.
I did my best to explain my view and why, but to understand you have to have a certain base that you seems to lack.
I have seen Alex comment above, maybe you should respond to him, and he will be able to bring some clarity in your mind about the why and how.
***So far you have not actually discussed the merits of Gladiator.Funny part is - he has, but you haven't. Yet you keep repeating this kaka - this is an unfortunately common practice, and it is not a fair practice.
Instead of trying to put others on spot, why don't YOU tell us something. So far you haven't.
So far you have been playing a "smart" NKVD interrogator. When an answer is given to another of your questions, you make a smart face and pronounce the answer is not up to your expectation. Well, my dog can do that. I am sure you will find some who love that game, I suspect most will simply tell you go climb a tree. Rightly so.
Listen, it makes sense to have a dialogue. But you are not a psychologist, not an interrogator, not even someone who has established his right to be critical of others' opinions.
Why don't you do a RESET, and start by writing about movies you like and don't, and if your reviews spark some interest then people will be willing to talk to you.
As it is, this is silly - you traps, your pulling, your prying...
Boring is the word that comes to mind at your "discussion" technique.
"***So far you have not actually discussed the merits of Gladiator.
Funny part is - he has, but you haven't. Yet you keep repeating this kaka - this is an unfortunately common practice, and it is not a fair practice."You are just plain delusional here. The facts are there in the thread for anyone to see or as you have ignore.
"Instead of trying to put others on spot, why don't YOU tell us something. So far you haven't."
Apparently my posts get the same treatment you as did LOTRs. You dismiss them as kaka without an actual viewing. That is kaka.
"So far you have been playing a "smart" NKVD interrogator."
Utter rubbish. I am the only one who has talked about the content of the movie. Open your eyes." When an answer is given to another of your questions, you make a smart face and pronounce the answer is not up to your expectation."
Objectively wrong answers are not up to my expectations. Excues me for expecting answers of substance. I guess this bothers you since you are clearly devoid of such answers when questioned. Too bad.
" Well, my dog can do that."
Sticks and stones. Get back to me when you have something of substance to say. So far you are all wind. Wind that smells of kaka.
" I am sure you will find some who love that game, I suspect most will simply tell you go climb a tree. Rightly so. "
No only you so far. Maybe because you are full of kaka.
"Listen, it makes sense to have a dialogue. But you are not a psychologist, not an interrogator, not even someone who has established his right to be critical of others' opinions."
Oh, rights to opinions on this message board have to be "established? Tell us what gives you the right? So far all I see is a pretrentuos ass standing on a soap box calling every "Hollywood" film kaka. That is just plain pathetic. On what grounds do you claim the exclusive right to be critical of others?
"Why don't you do a RESET, and start by writing about movies you like and don't,"
I have been but you seem to be ignoring what I write. You can lead a horse to water but....
" and if your reviews spark some interest then people will be willing to talk to you."
People have been talking to me.
"As it is, this is silly - you traps, your pulling, your prying...
Boring is the word that comes to mind at your "discussion" technique."
It figures that any discussion of the substance of a movie you call kaka would appear to be what you describe above. Maybe if you had the wits and knowledge to agrue the merits of my posts you wouldn't have to posture so much.
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