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I brought home seven Giancarlo Giannini movies, anticipating great movie weekend. And some of them did not disappoint me.However, the picture of the week is not one of them. It is, instead, that of a storm trooper, armed with the MP-5 sub-machine gun (some correct terminology here), equipped with the tactical light under its barrel. The picture that was not supposed to happen or exist. The one that the New York Times and Washington Post were not brave enough to put on their front pages. It fell onto generaly pretty lame Philadelphia paper to do so.
It used to be that troopers like that were involved when someone's life was at stake, not the political future of few spotty characters.
I lament the fact that in a country with free and independent media the troopers would be met by several news crews, greeted with camera lights and live feed to the TV stations around the country. Here it was all controlled in that department, and quite well, thank you. No Bernard Shaw at scene... no Dan I'd Rather count my millions...
Too bad for them they missed that lonely photographer. Lucky for us, they did not dare to rip his camera. So there is still some hope.
Therefore, my strong nomination. Sorry, Giancarlo, next week, perhaps?
For now, as they used to say in Rome, Lions - five, Christians - zero.
Pat Buchanan. ca.1972. Not that I ever doubted those sage comments, but I guess this forum bears witness. Any of you goose-steppers buy anything made by them RED Chinese lately? HUH?
Huh? Make up your mind. Are you talking about the democratic socialist (aka: goose-stepping countries) left wing, or the republican capitalist right wing?
I'm talking about the unwashed proles in our great welfare capitalist plutocracy. My point about China was aimed at the conservative Cuba bashers who are more than willing to roll over for any country, regardless of its politics, as long as there is profit to be made. Human rights be damned!
I think they all should be outlawed. No need to bash a perfectly good mass murderer. God knows, some day we might need him.
Can you honestly compare Castro to Stalin or Hitler? What kind of political baggage are you carrying into this? All governments are evil. It's inherent. You want Genocide? Talk to the Sioux or the Cherokee. Or was that somehow less evil?
***Can you honestly compare Castro to Stalin or Hitler?Perhaps you know something about him that we don't - then share it with us. Until that time - the answer is "yes". Absolute scale is of little importance.
***What kind of political baggage are you carrying into this?
It is generally called experience and knowledge. Plus information. Something wrong with that?
***All governments are evil.
Are you seriously promoting Anarchy? I do not subscribe to that theory. Your thesis is cynical and could use a lot of help.
***It's inherent.Perhaps it seems so to you, but I do not see much justification for that broad statement.
***You want Genocide?No.
***Talk to the Sioux or the Cherokee. Or was that somehow less evil?
I fail to see how one murder makes another one less grave.
None of your statements so far makes Castro less mass murderer than he is. But maybe I do not understand your sense of scale. Maybe you feel one should go over 10 million to earn that name, I don't know.
why you chose Cuba to single out for your screed. Got a bad cotraband cigar? Or something that just rankles your White Russian soul?
I know the raid to get the boy disturbed your insomniac film fest
but what were the other options. Why didnt those good law abiding relatives just turn the boy over. Its not like he was going to be sent to a death camp. He was just going to his father, who I assume, just happens to be a red. What should have been a purely personal issue was turned into a political one, being cashed in on by pundits on both sides. Once again if the situation somehow involved the mainland Chinese would it have been as big an issue politicaly, or in the media? Do the Chinese have less of a record of mass murder? Mao might have been the heavy weight champ. Why is there a embargo against Cuba, while trade with China is encouraged. How about your incisive political analysis of the Tianamen square incident?
***why you chose Cuba to single out for your screed.As I mentioned before, I speak about something that touches me. This one did. What is wrong with that? It WAS one significant event.
***Got a bad cotraband cigar? Or something that just rankles your White Russian soul?Why White Russian (no idea what you mean here)? As opposed to Red Russian? Black Russian? Russian blue from cold with red nose?
***I know the raid to get the boy disturbed your insomniac film fest
but what were the other options.Why, following the law, of course. Do what court decides. I see nothing wrong with that one.
***Why didnt those good law abiding relatives just turn the boy over. Its not like he was going to be sent to a death camp.Perhaps he was. Any Cuban might be. Cuba is not some country where law means anything.
***He was just going to his father, who I assume, just happens to be a red. What should have been a purely personal issue was turned into a political one, being cashed in on by pundits on both sides.
There is element of this, but while the relatives played it passively and had NO POWER of violating court decision, the Reno's troops did just that.
***Once again if the situation somehow involved the mainland Chinese would it have been as big an issue politicaly, or in the media?I guess you would have to come up with that particular issue and then we would see.
***Do the Chinese have less of a record of mass murder? Mao might have been the heavy weight champ.Chinese are among the leaders in human rights violations. But they also contribute heavily to certain political compaigns. Perhaps this is the reason.
***Why is there a embargo against Cuba, while trade with China is encouraged. How about your incisive political analysis of the Tianamen square incident?
Both countries should be dealt with harshly. They both have tremendous records of human rights vilations. I see no inconsistency here at all. In fact, this administration's treatment of communist human rights vilators have been extremely consistent across the board.
They even play with Asad and Quadafy. What could be more cynical than this?
Tom wants our "inherently evil" government to have "absolute power" & somehow that would magicly make them "good". This "Pain" isn't a relative of "Thomas Paine"©1776. No "Common Sense" to be found.
" Tom wants our "inherently evil" government to have " absolute power" "
Gee, Mart where in any of my statements do you garner this kernal of wisdom? How can the advocate of ANY government "system" take any moral high ground on this. According to VK's "reasoning" the murder of one is the same as the murder of millions. Perhaps this is so, ethically speaking. What government is not guilty? But killing one is not the same as destroying a culture or a way of life thru genocide. So what criteria do we use when we pick a target for a political rant.
Personal prefrerence, " experience+knowledge", current Media exposure? All of the above? So where are the posts attacking China in Tibet, Britain in N. Ireland, U.S. in Cetral/South America,etc,etc. Personal politcal philosophy will be the ultimate arbiter I guess. Some crimes will loom larger depending on which system commits them. And which system we personally prefer.
so, you're NOT saying that our government didn't have the right to kidnap the child away from where the mother wanted him to reside?I agree!!!
***According to VK's "reasoning" the murder of one is the same as the murder of millions.That is a gross oversimplification, of course. There are other factors to consider, as is always done by courts.
***Perhaps this is so, ethically speaking.
To many, any death sentence is murder, to others it is justice. There is room for interpretation in some cases.
***What government is not guilty?
Of what? Of "final solution"? Of gross misconduct? Of stealing an apple?
What human being is not guilty? Some and not all are, however, considered murderers.
***But killing one is not the same as destroying a culture or a way of life thru genocide.
No argument here.
***So what criteria do we use when we pick a target for a political rant.
Personal prefrerence, " experience+knowledge", current Media exposure?All ARE legitimate reasons. Irish will naturally talk about one crime, Jews about another. I see nothing wrong with that.
***All of the above?Yes.
***So where are the posts attacking China in Tibet, Britain in N. Ireland, U.S. in Cetral/South America,etc,etc. Personal politcal philosophy will be the ultimate arbiter I guess. Some crimes will loom larger depending on which system commits them. And which system we personally prefer.
You have as much right to bring up subjects of those crimes as anyone else. You shouldn't, however, use the fact that someone had not addressed your favorite issue as sign of insincerity.
Write about it, cite the facts, scream if needed. It is all in your hands.
I shall scream about those crimes that touch me most. Please feel free to do the same.
> > I shall scream about those crimes that touch me most. Please feel free to do the same. < <Fine. Great, even. It's our duty to scream. But let's do it in the appropriate forum, please.
... for I see no other forum here more appropriate for such a dialog. Or, are these people supposed to be shielded from the truth by sending the controversy to entirely different site?I'm sorry, I see no other option.
just my 2¢
» Mart £ «
Of course I'm not saying that. Please explain to me how you can read such a thing from my post.
Thank you.joe
.
Have any of you people ever actually been to Cuba?
I don't smoke
Come on guys!This is supposed to be a forum for films, not politics or Clinton bashing.
Jimmy
I don't see a problem with *occasionally* letting an off topic thread run for a while. There's been very little acrimony directed at the persons actually doing the posting. I'm not upset over the exchanges that have taken place and hope those on the opposite side aren't either.I don't know who moderates this forum, but so far they've done a fine job of it, and I'm not just speaking about this thread. Whoever it is, thanks for the time and effort involved.
thank you Ears. My sentiments precisely. A worthy opponent is to be cultivated every bit as ernestly as a lifelong friend. We strive to do battle with our wits, using our passions to push us to limits we might otherwise never see, and know ourselves all the better for it.If music is not all about passion, then it is mearly farting upwind. When I detect a particular oder amongst my audio buddies, I know they love the music as passionately as I do. We are bothers in arms.
Keep your friends close, and your enemies closer.
**We are bothers in arms.**I assume that was a typo, but it works either way. ;-P
Unless there's a definite connection between political discussion and film, let's keep our politics to ourselves!
Stephen, you and jimmy have the right idea, but I'm afraid it's too late. I let myself read this entire string, and I'm shocked and saddened by what I've learned about my friends. I can't abide the lies and misinformation and hate that I've read here. Since this string has been endorsed by Rod M--I'm compeled to answer.
________________Jaun's father has a pretty good job in Cuba--working at one of the tourist resorts, where he has access to "real" money. The life he can offer his family is good by Cuban standards. The tourist industry in Cuba is big, and getting bigger every day, since they no longer have the support of the Russians, who used to send them oil and other economic support, and they have little else to offer the world besides boxers, baseball players, and tobacco (which is why the Republicans are working so hard to keep Cuba under communism--because they get so much tobacco money from companies that don't want Cuba to compete independently with them in "free-trade"). The name of the game is real money, and the tourists bring plenty of it. This capitulation to capitalism is the only thing keeping Cuba afloat. We can expect it to get better for them every day. Castro has been showing signs of dementia for some time now. He won't be "in power" much longer, assuming he is even now. We can expect his minions to be taking over, a power struggle is imminent, and everything will change completely in the next few years. Our president, our government, have to be very careful about handling Cuba for the next few years. There is a real chance for a reconciliation, in spite of all the efforts of the Republicans--idiots like Jesse Helms--to prevent it. It's a new age, a time to look forward to hope for a peace that circles the globe--a peace built from economic and technological miracles, an a real and lasting vision of the basic goodness inside everyone. Old enemies are our friends. We have to have hope, expect the best, and have the vision to keep moving towards the light in countries like Russia, China, Indonesia, Iran, Iraq, and Cuba. We have to set an example for the world--not with street violence and demonstrations of civil disobedience where there is a clear rule of law at issue: a good law that serves to protect a son and his father from the corrupt influence of outsiders with self-serving interests.
Jaun's father did communicate with the Miami relatives when he learned that his wife and son had left Cuba. Since there was nothing else he could do at the time, he asked the Miami relatives to take care of them. What else could he do at that point? When the mother died the father clearly has both the moral and legal right to "speak for the son". He also has the right to reclaim the custody of his son at any time, baring a legal order saying otherwise. The judicial branch granted custody of Juan to the Miami relatives, and then revoked the custody about two weeks ago, and had both a court order--granted through due process, and a search warrent, when the Miami relatives refused to take any steps to transfer custody of the son to the father. The owner of the home in Miami went on national television and told the world that they would have to take Juan by force, and that he would arm himself with a pistol. He also was convicted of DIU and it is not known if his drinking problem is under control. Two of the relatives that have been seen with the boy are convicted felons, one of them an armed robber. There is known to have been weapons in the crowds outside the house. A sudden and overwhelming show of force and the advantage of suprise is a well-known tactic to minimise resistance in hostile situations. It worked. What is the problem?
Ms Reno gave the Miami relatives clear warning that there was an absolute deadline of 5 AM Saturday morning. She gave them clear notice that they would absolutely not capitulate on transfer of custody of the boy to his father, but all the other circumstances and situations were negociable. When they refused, the INS was sent on their way at about 4 AM EDT. There was one final attempt to negociate with the attorney for the relatives, at which point Ms Reno gave them five minuites to come to an agreement, from 4:21 AM to 4:26 AM, and the INS "storm troopers" who were already in transit to the house, actually pulled off to the side of the road and waited for Ms Reno's call. The Miami relatives would not yield, so the troops were sent in. They were out in three minuites. No one was injured. The crowd assaulted the van containing Juan with bottles and rocks, so they were sprayed with capsaysin to drive them back, preventing further rioting and violence while the federal agents, the family, and the boy were still at risk of the uncontroled emotions fanned by outsiders with hidden adgendas. The whole situation was handled with brilliance and the utmost professionalism. I applaud Ms Reno and the INS. Well done.
The boy lost his mother under horrble circumstances. Inconceivable. He never had the chance to morn. He was kept from contact with his father, who by all accounts had always been a good father to him and gave him the best life he could. The boy was forced to make a video tape "declaring his desire to stay in the USA" at 1AM in the morning! One AM! What kind of people are these? What kind of life did they give him--encouraging the spectical out on the street- with violent crowds at all hours? What kind of book deal were they maneuvering for? They were horrible to him--thinking only of their own psychic trama as ex-patiriots, and maneuvering constantly for a the best sound-bite, the best photo-op, the biggest political gain. Where were this child's best interests in their hearts? They had room only for their own personal saga, thinking little of the real needs of a six-year-old boy. He was thrown into a fantasy world of Disney and toys and late-night chaos in the streets. Nuts. What emotional disaster awaited this child when he realizes both is mother and his father are lost to him?
It is well established that the presence of the father is crutial to the healthy development of a boy. There is no reason to keep them seperated--none--not legaly, not morally, not politcally, not economically, no reason. A six-year old boy doesn't care if he lives in a county with communist politics or capitalist politics--a six-year-old boy needs his father, and a close, loving family, and kids his own age and of his own circumstances to play and learn with--a community safe from the drugs and violence that plague places like the Miami home he was held prisoner in. I think he has a chance for that now. We don't know where he and his father will end up, and we certainly can't predict what Cuba will be like when the boy is old enough to make legal choices for himself.
This is Ms Reno's finest hour. I'm very proud of her guts, her compassion, and her intelligence in the way she handled this. Bravo.
Now, who has bought the movie rights? Can you see Sharron Stone playing Reno? We can get Arnold to play the INS agent, and put in a wild chase scene through Miami with low-riders sparking behind the fleeing van and spraying the nieghborhoods with automatic weapons fire. That's what the Republicans wished would have happened. Sigh.
> > > This is Ms Reno's finest hour. < < <No, her finest hour was Waco! That fiasco resulted in the loss of far more lives. To be proud of someone who was responsible for an atrocity such as that, sickens me. As well it should every good, decent, American.
Finally, an intelligent post on this subject.
among the mistakes and errors made in that rant, I refered to the boy as "Juan". Of course, Juan Miguel Gonzalez is the father, and Elian is the son. I apologise for the confusion.
nt
On occasion, this forum has the capacity to surprise, and astonish.
Thank you.
> > I can't abide the lies and misinformation and hate that I've read here. < <Me, either. What a waste of bandwith. Outta here.
Notice how Juan Gonzales has been shielded from anyone who might encourage him to ask for asylum? The last thing the Clinton administration would want to happen would be that. The U.S government wanted Elian back with Juan soon enough to make sure that Elian wouldn't ask for asylum at the scheduled hearing. Actually, I'd be surprised if it even goes as far as an asylum hearing now, and I wouldn't be a bit surprised for Elian to be headed back to Cuba within a week or two. This wasn't about custody or parental rights or rule of law; it was about foreign policy and Clinton lost that battle with Castro months ago if Clinton even put up a fight at all.If I'm not mistaken, children in Cuba are possessions of the State. Property. Slavery is not extinct. The Mason-Dixon line is just a little farther south than it used to be. I wouldn't have betrayed the kid and I'm not Cuban-rich, old, expatriate, or otherwise.
And I have never been so sickened, disgusted, infuriated, and shamed by the United States as I was by that Gestapo action that took place in Miami. This is the first time in my entire life that I have ever felt like burning an American flag; just one more miracle accomplished by Clinton and Company.
seeing how his current wife's kid is still in cuba, along with his mother, I don't think juan will be asking for asylum regardless. and he's still the kid's father, no matter what country he comes from, no matter what his political beliefs are, no matter how he may or may not be used by castro or reno or hitler or herod, he's still the kid's father.
I wasn't as accurate as I would have wished in my earlier message. I haven't been able to find a reference in Cuban law that says that children are possessions of the State in those words. It was actually a Cuban government spokesman who said that Elian is a possession of the Cuban government. However, the Code of Children and Young Persons makes it clear that Juan Gonzales has no parental rights in Cuba. But we already knew that, didn't we? I ran across a message while reading about the Elian saga which puts forward my views and feelings about the matter far more eloquently than I could myself. I hope the guy that posted it won't mind my copying it over to here:***[Herman Jacobs, University of Chicago] If only life were simple--and not so tragic.
Whether it would be best for a boy to live with his father, but without freedom, or to live in freedom, but without his father, is a horribly tragic question, but not a simple one.By my point of view parental "rights" are really parental "duties," because those "rights" exist not for the parent's benefit but because we wisely recognize that it is almost always better for children in the long run if the persons most closely attached to them by blood, affection, and proximity make the decisions about their upbringing. This is almost always better, but not always better. Governments rightly intervene when an assertion of parental "rights" threatens serious and lasting harm to a child.
I personally think the question of Elian's father's capacity to make this decision freely deserves a more thorough consideration than was given in the INS "investigation," which was completely lacking in any due-process protections for Elian, protections such as the right to confront and cross-examine under oath the witnesses whose testimony presumably formed the basis of the INS decision. The present indications are that Elian's father wants to be a good parent, yet the question still remains whether the conditions in Cuba, along with the conditions peculiar to Elian's situation, will allow Elian's father to be the good parent he seems to want to be. This is not, as some would have it, merely a political contest about "ideology," because in Cuba Castro's "ideology" has grave consequences in the lives of ordinary people. Putting the matter in more extreme terms, I would say that if a man is trapped in a burning house, no parental right requires that his son, who has escaped the blaze, be sent back into the flames "to be with his father," even if that is what the father wishes. Perhaps comparing Castro's Cuba to a buring house is excessive; perhaps it reflects an anti-Castro bias; but perhaps there is some truth in the comparison that must be taken into account.
So those who are to decide whether Elian should be sent to his father must ask, Can Elian's father now protect him from the very real threat of Castro's oppression? This question deserves especially serious thought because, if the child is returned to Cuba--so long as Castro or someone like him is in power--Elian will not be able to enjoy even the shred of security and freedom that ordinary Cubans retain solely by virtue of their obscurity and anonymity. Though regretable, this "politicization" of Elian is an accomplished fact which cannot be undone and which must be considered. Perhaps if this situation has been handled more discreetly and with less fanfare on both sides, it would have been more clearly appropriate to return Elian to whatever constitutes a "normal" life in Cuba. But now that Elian has become such a cause celebre both here and in Cuba, if the boy returns to Cuba, don't you suppose that Castro will take special "care" to make sure that Elian does not become a propaganda embarrassment? What might Castro do if, at ten years of age, he begins to show any sign of "counter-revolutionary" thinking? What might happen if Elian--declared a "hero of the revolution" the day he returns to Cuba--eight years later were to announce that he wished he could live in freedom? Don't you suppose Castro will keep Elian under particularly intense scrutiny to make sure that doesn't happen? If you think such questions are merely hypothetical and reflect an anti-Castro bias, perhaps you should read what orginizations such as Human Rights Watch have written lately about the pervasiveness of Castro's repressive machinary. Then consider how that machinary might be brought to bear particularly against Elian to keep him under control--even while he is yet a child--not to mention when he becomes an adult.Perhaps you should also make yourself familiar with what Cuban law has to say about the relationships of parents, children, and the state. Under Cuban law, the state--not the parent--has complete authority over children's upbringing. Wouldn't it be ironic if the US government--in deference to parental "rights" which Cuba does not recognize--would not even allow a court to examine what might be in Elian's best interests. It is a curious and faulty logic to say that, in order to uphold the principle of parental rights, the US government must honor Elian's father's parental rights, when Cuban law says Elian's father has no parental rights. The INS is attempting to recognize an exercise of rights which the Cuban government simply does not allow Elian's father to exercise. So though Elian's father may be ENTITLED under US law to exercise parental rights, the ACTUAL exercise of those rights cannot occur so long as Elian's father is subject to Cuban law. Simply put, where Cuban law prevents the actual exercise of parental rights, the US should not feel constrained to honor the form of an exercise of parental rights when the substance of the exercise of those rights is lacking--especially when the putative exercise of parental rights threatens the long term best interests of the child. I, too, believe in upholding the general principle of non-intervention into exercises of parental rights (understood more precisely as exercises of parental duties). But when the actual substance of the exercise of parental rights is only a fiction, we should not sacrifice the goal of parental rights--the goal of serving the child's best interests--in order to uphold the mere form of parental rights.
I do not suggest that the United States government begin to inquire and intervene into the relationships of all parents and children, foreign or citizen, who happen to be within our country's boundaries. Such intrusion would be unwise and unjust. However, the moral rule, if you will, is different because of the fact that Elian arrived on our shores without a parent at his side. When a lost child comes into one's care, one has a moral obligation greater than simply to return the child unquestioningly to the circumstances whence he came. Our government has partly fulfilled that moral duty by inquiring into the whereabouts and circumstances of Elian's father. However, because the political conditions in Cuba will not be neutral factors in Elian's future, but will be peculiarly signifigant in his particular circumstances, we are morally obliged to consider how those political conditions are likely to affect him not only now, but for the rest of his life.
The very sad question really is freedom versus family. That is a tragic question, one that no one should ever have to face, but one that must be dealt with now. Just as we take account of the father-son bond, so also must we try to take account of the value of freedom for a full human life. And since Elian will be a child only twelve more years, but will--God willing--live as an adult another fifty years, we must not carelessly condemn Elian to what might be an entire life without freedom. Even if we could be sure that Elian could live a contented childhood in Cuba, it is wrong to say, "Let the childhood be contented, and let the adulthood take care of itself." All good parents pray that the joys and blessings proper to childhood be fulfilled in their offspring, yet they also know that childhood is not an end in itself, but serves by nature as preparation for a fully developed adulthood. A fit parent considers not only what will make a child content in the brief span of his childhood, much less what the parent wants for himself, but more especially what will be best for the person's entire life. A boy needs his father--but the boy will very soon grow into a man, and a man needs his freedom.***
Herman Jacobs is so obviously wrong I don't know where to start. Let's just pick on one of the more obviously rediculous statements:"What might Castro do if, at ten years of age, he begins to show any sign of "counter-revolutionary" thinking? What might happen if Elian--declared a "hero of the revolution" the day he returns to Cuba--eight years later were to announce that he wished he could live in freedom? Don't you suppose Castro will keep Elian under particularly intense scrutiny to make sure that doesn't happen?"
What might Castro do, if he's still alive two, four, six, or eight years from now? I suppose he might be pissing his pants at the very least, foaming black puss from his tobacco-stained lips, looking under every bed for his friend Nikita who promised to send him a Cadillac if he let the Russians put nukes aimed at Washington in the corners of every sugarcane and tobacco field. Kennedy is dead Mr. Jacobs, so is "shoeless" Nicky K. Castro is a ghost. The cold war is over. Mr. Jacobs, where do you get your crackpot ideas? Have you listened to Castro's speaches lately? The man is gone, finished, kaput. He's as good as dead. Revolution will be in all the papers any day now. Generals will be fighting over a sinking ship, and Castro denounced as a trator. Things will get bad, and then better. Have some hope and faith in the almighty dollar! In God we trust, all others pay cash! Cuba died the day the Russians stopped shipping oil and the German tourists started flocking in with their Deutschmarks. Cuba has been bleeding citizens for many years now--it's only a prison insomuch as the United States is doing whatever we can to keep them from arriving safely on our shores. We should be sending cruse ships to pick them up. America needs these people more than ever. They are, after all, North Americans like us! Wake up! There are no Communists playing dominoes in your closet! Juan Gonzalez was positioned in exactly the right place to capitalize on the new Cuban economy. Mr. Jacobs want's us to believe in his gross generalizations that everyone in Cuba lives exactly the same life. He's spouting Castro's communist propaganda better than Castro ever did. It just ain't so, and it never has been. Many people suffer wretched deprivations--just as many do in the United States. Which is worse--to be destitute and free, living over a steam vent in Philadelphia with a wicked crack habit or hopeless alcoholism, or the same situation in Havanna? Suffering doesn't care about a political agenda. What can we say about the future Elian might see in Cuba? Well, let's take a look at what he faces in Miami:
The man who owns the house he's staying in is a convicted drunk driver, who told the TV cameras that Elian would have to be taken by force and that he had a pistol to back him up. At least two of the Miami relatives seen with the boy are felons convicted of crimes with weapons. Yesterday the Miami relatives told the press that they had "removed all the weapons from the house" before the INS arrived. Whew! I feel safe, how about you? The boy is seen at 1 AM making a video tape, quite obviously as a propaganda tactic to support the motives of his captors--opps--relatives. These same relatives have created a complete fantasy life around the child--placating him with toys, excursions to Disney World (yea, that's real)and attentions that they can't possibly maintain, and keeping him from all of the people and routines that have had real meaning to him all of his life. I don't know what the motivations of these relatives are, but I have little doubt about the other players:
Who is the Governor of Florida? Hum...who could it be? I wonder if it's the brother of the Cocaine-smoking, party-animal, Governor of Texas, a presidential candidate of a political party long known to do anything, no dirty trick too abhorant, to win an election? Humm--and the Mayor of Miami? I don't suppose he has any political ambitions that might prompt him to cower to the Cuban ex-patriots? Heck no, even though he told his police force to make sure they don't push the crowds too far back--so they can easily be seen by the media and are certain to interfere with any attempt by Janet Reno to collect the boy herself--unarmed, which she would have done had it not been for the intelligence--once again received from the Mayor's police force, the there were guns in the crowds... and Majority leader Trent Lott, Castro's right-hand man, leader of--you know, the party that openly encourages US citizens to ignore the Census, the Census ordered by our Constitution--an illegal act subject to criminal penalties? Well hell, I know Castro must be worse than that! I mean, as bad as these politicians are, we know Castro is worse--isn't he?
Well is he? Hey, has anyone seen him lately? Is he alive today? And if he is, and the Gonzalez family decides to return to Cuba, is it likely that the Castro regeme will begin a campaign to repress the boy and his family and friends and teachers? Is that probable? Is it logical? Is there a chance in Hell that that will happen? That's what Mr. Jacobs proposes--at least that's his propaganda campaign. And who does Mr. Jacobs report to?
Yea, it's the Miami relatives, and the Republican Party that are conducting a "re-education" campaign against the boy--not Castro. They are the mind-washers and truth-spinners we have to fear. "Oh my God! The photographs are being brainwashed and injected with Heroin by Janet Reno!" Give me a break! The boy is back with his father, and the evil Janet Reno and her storm troopers have reunited the boy with his schoolmates and teacher from Cuba--to begin the slow process of re-grounding the kid in reality, and allowing him a chance to recognize and cope with his horrific ordeal, and learn that in quiet times, the people who really love and care about you will be realized.
The Republicans have everything to lose by letting this family alone, and letting the legal process work without the interference of political ambitions. The Miami relatives mean well, but have stupidly let themselves be influenced by forces way beyond their ability to control or even comprehend. Castro may be a bad man, but he's on his way out. The Hate Campaign and devisive politics of the Republicans is just beginning. Who can't see this? Who among us is so politically nieve to think that the Republican Party doesn't have an interest in aiding and abetting the slander and corruption of the Clinton administration, Janet Reno's Justice department, and anyone who stands in their way? Herman Jacobs is an idiot, his motives are transparent.
Let me look into my crystal, and forecast a future for Cuba: by this summer, Castro is gone. There's a brief power struggle, but a consortium of the Mafia, a few far-sighted Fortune 500 companies, and some international Drug Kingpins make a deal with a young, emerging Cuban power group, and soon Resort Casinos, and high value-added production facilities--pharmaceutical companies and chip-makers, begin a building boom that can exploit the cheap, skilled-labor market 90 miles from our shores. Who's going to build our HDTVs? Mexico had better shape-up. It's a brave new world out there. Jesse Helms wants Daimler-Chrysler and Toyota to build SUV's in North Carlolina, not Cuba, so he does whatever he can to screw the pooch. Wake up! We have seen the enemy, and he is us.
Let the past be past. Let's make a vision quest. What kind of world do we want to live in? What kind of people are on the school board in your own community? Leave the poor kid alone. George Bush and Al Gore think you are stupid. If you don't vote in your local elections--your mayors, your township supervisors, your school boards, you've proved them right. The national elections are a done deal--bought and paid for. What's going on in your hometown? Who cares about Cuba? We are the ones suffering ignorance and oppression. Physician, heal thyself.
Seize the day! Put no trust in the morrow. --Horace
***What might Castro do, if he's still alive two, four, six, or eight years from now? ***What might he do? Let's look at what he does do. And let's not forget that Elian is not the only child enmeshed in the sorry situation. The daughter of one of the survivors of that fateful ocean voyage remains in Cuba, but no longer attends school. Why? Because she was beaten daily by her indocrinated little "playmates" acting under the encouragement of her indoctrinated "teachers". Her crime? Refusing to condemn her mother for leaving Castro's island utopia.
***Have you listened to Castro's speaches lately? ***
I saw part of the speech he gave several days ago. Looks like a tough old codger with several years still left in him to me.
***Is he alive today? And if he is, and the Gonzalez family decides to return to Cuba, is it likely that the Castro regeme will begin a campaign to repress the boy and his family and friends and teachers?***
See above.
***Which is worse--to be destitute and free...or the same situation in Havanna?***
Gee, let me ponder that a nanosecond. Um...er...the first one?
***Yesterday the Miami relatives told the press that they had "removed all the weapons from the house" before the INS arrived. Whew! I feel safe, how about you? The boy is seen at 1 AM making a video tape, quite obviously as a propaganda tactic to support the motives of his captors--opps--relatives. These same relatives have created a complete fantasy life around the child***
You want to talk about fantasy? The "good" Congressman Jose Serrano D-NY when asked by Chris Matthews during a television interview if there is freedom of speech in Cuba replied "Sure". Whew! I feel safe, how about you?
***Let me look into my crystal, and forecast a future for Cuba: by this summer, Castro is gone.***
Your crystal ball must be better than mine. All I can get on mine are reruns of Gilligan's Island not Castro's.
***Herman Jacobs is an idiot, his motives are transparent.***
I'm half in agreement with you. The second half of your statement is true. And on that note of agreement, I'll shut up and let the board get back to discussing on-topic things of greater importance--like how much Jar Jar Binks sucks.
###***Which is worse--to be destitute and free...or the same situation in Havanna?***Gee, let me ponder that a nanosecond. Um...er...the first one?###
I meant the second one. The sarcasm drifted a little off course, but you get my drift.
the illegitimate child of Janet Reno and Slick Willie Clinton!
hi,
it means 'against the man' and refers to an improper use of argumentation. Which is what you did there. Perhaps you could find something worth saying?
Who's arguing? I was merely making an observation relating to petew's rantings which were totally off the wall and uncalled for. If you wish to defend the spewing of that kind of trash, you most certainly have that right. On the other hand, I have the right to express my opinion on the matter. IMO, what I said was well worth saying.
Pete made a long post, that had many points to it. You responded with a crude insult. The post was definitely not trash. Trash is stuff that serves no purpose; like insults.
My point is this: if you have a point, then make it. I disagree with Pete most of the time. When i respond, i make my case;
and leave it at that.
The "insult" was not crude, but very succint and cleverly stated I might add. And, for your benefit, many times insults DO serve a very real purpose (as in this case). I have made my point, I don't see how it could be clearer?
Just wanted to add one minor point. Reading the "Constitutions" from countries like Cuba, USSR, China is one strange excercise. I have not read Mein Kampf, but I presume the Cuban constitution is far more hypocrytical. I regret not saving a copy of the Stalin's one. One would read it with watery eyes and it feels like a fairy tale.One would be completely foolish to believe ANY word from ANY official source in Cuba. When it comes to lying, they wrote the book. Yes, it is called "constitution".
... the separation of Church & state in the former soviet constitution?I still don't know when exactly we adopted their constitution which still wells up my eyes but no one can deny we have. Nor, can they deny we adopted Hitler's policy of no smoking in public buildings. Or, the forewarned Orwellian nightmare if one started using the SS# for general identification purposes. The system's been so distorted, I'm sure they'll FDA will start taxing twinkies next.
Remember when seatbelts were inflicted on the auto industry & they said they'd NEVER require us to use them? People like us didn't believe them then & were called conspiracy theorists for their trouble & we don't believe them now!
How long do you think it'll be before the state starts arresting parents on child abuse charges because they choose to smoke cigarettes in their homes? Even though no existing proof on second hand smoke exists yet. I still like the one about the statistical increase in stewardesses coming down with more lung cancer since they banned smoking!!!! Or, nicotine has been sited as a statistically major deterrent to Alzheimer's disease!!! That must appall C. Evert Cooper to no end.
OTOH, the same bunch of hypocrites want to legalize marijuana which enormously more carcinogenic & much more dangerous drug than alcohol for driving purposes (I've witnessed one joint completely screwing up the judgement of those driving where as one beer can only mildly slow down one's reactions slightly).
hi Mart,
1) the evidence on damage by second hand smoke grows. For most,
when the link between damage to fetal development and smoking (even secondhand) became well established, the argument was over. Unless you are asserting you have a right to cause harm to other people?
2) Maine taxes Twinkies. It started a mini tax revolt, and it is going away.
3) The publicly stated purpose of the Traffic Safety people is... safety! There has been a steady decrease in fatalities largely thanks to their efforts. On their behalf, let me say you're welcome.
4) The use of the word 'proof' is improper. There is a growing body of evidence linking second hand smoke to health risks. Among scientists this is almost to the stage i like to refer to as: 'controversial as mud'.
5) Thank you for the insult, it's nice to know where you stand.
6) Drug policy in this country is a disaster. Another legacy of RMN. There is an impressive body of work on the subject, from economic analyses, to polemics. Let me refer you to "Ain't nobody's business if you do: The absurdity of consensual crimes in a free society" by Peter McWilliams. I have no intention of even synopsing
the dozens of papers, and books, i have read on the subject; but that
is a remarkable book.
7) You have probably never listened to Dr Koop speak of what he did, why, and how he did it as Surgeon General. Not only does it make a good story; but my respect for the man became enormous. He did
this country a great service. You know how a penny doubled every day
becames a million? Substitute dead bodies for pennies, and you have a good start on what epidemiology is about, and why hundreds of thousands of Americans owe their lives to him.
8) you are better than this, Mart.
I don't smoke. I just don't want people telling me I have to stand outside to talk to my friends. It's ludicrous!
1) the evidence on damage by second hand smoke grows. For most,
when the link between damage to fetal development and smoking (even secondhand) became well established, the argument was over. Unless you are asserting you have a right to cause harm to other people?So, are you saying you WOULD arrest parents for smoking?
2) Maine taxes Twinkies. It started a mini tax revolt, and it is going away.
Please tell me you're kidding. I wasn't expecting this level of tyranny for another decade. The left is ahead of schedule!
3) The publicly stated purpose of the Traffic Safety people is... safety! There has been a steady decrease in fatalities largely thanks to their efforts. On their behalf, let me say you're welcome.
There has been many an unconstitutional law imposed on the masses under the guise of safety. If that's the punishment for living, let me die free instead.
4) The use of the word 'proof' is improper. There is a growing body of evidence linking second hand smoke to health risks. Among scientists this is almost to the stage i like to refer to as: 'controversial as mud'.
Proof is completely valid where their is an overwhelming statistical evidence from laboratory experiments. Don't forget the great unwashed also believes "global warming" is just as controversial as mud, but its hasn't been substantiated either. Much like cholesterol, it has only been successfully linked to strokes if the count is too low, but the complete lack of facts didn't stop its adoption.
5) Thank you for the insult, it's nice to know where you stand.
I'm sorry if the "term" wasn't appropriate for you. I was addressing the people who want to ban tobacco, but legalize marijuana which has been proven to be worse in every category. It's insane!
6) Drug policy in this country is a disaster. Another legacy of RMN. There is an impressive body of work on the subject, from economic analyses, to polemics. Let me refer you to "Ain't nobody's business if you do: The absurdity of consensual crimes in a free society" by Peter McWilliams. I have no intention of even synopsing
the dozens of papers, and books, i have read on the subject; but that
is a remarkable book.
I agree the lack of any drug policy lately has been an unmitigated disaster. Let's make one before we turn into another Holland where they lost their next generation to drugs.
7) You have probably never listened to Dr Koop speak of what he did, why, and how he did it as Surgeon General. Not only does it make a good story; but my respect for the man became enormous. He did
this country a great service. You know how a penny doubled every day
becames a million? Substitute dead bodies for pennies, and you have a good start on what epidemiology is about, and why hundreds of thousands of Americans owe their lives to him.
I've only listened to Dr. Koop which partially explains why I mispelled it. However, I haven't heard C.E.Koop espouse these facts. I did hear him say it warranted looking into it as well as other theories, which means precisely nada.
However, to hear him speak about possible fetal damage while proposing the child's cruel & unusual execution as proper prenatal care, denies his credibility.
8) you are better than this, Mart.
Thanks, I believe you are too
just my 2¢
» Mart £ «
1) the question related to the right, and not the deed; ie, you dodged
the question.
2) the Parental issue: govt involvement in parent's conduct vis a vis the care of children has been another disaster. We can agree there. But it another dodge. If your rights have limits, then some accomadation must be reached. Perhaps pregnant women should wait in the snow?
3)Snack Tax was passed by a REPUBLICAN
4)You use statistics to get correlations, not proof. You can prove precisely squat with statistics
5)Global Warming- scientists (that is guys in their area of expertise)
determine what their discipline will consider. Global Warming has been gaining ground for decades. Try reading Sci. Am. once in a while.
6) If you make allowance for the natural exaggeration of your discourse, i am one of those people. Criminalisation of drug use is
the root cause of the diaster. We lack the common sense of Americans during Prohibition. They saw crooks, booze, and machine guns and came up with a sensible response to the situation. They were soooo radical.
Tobacco has already been covered. There was a particularly good
English study published last year on effects of 2nd hand smoke on fetal dev. (Sci AM)
7) Mart, it is kinda obvious the history, and implications, of the whole aids thing was something you missed. He got an effective policy out of drooling idiots. Had he not done so, well, take a look at the progress of the disease in Africa. Without an effective response, the suffering, and death, is in the millions. Millions.
8)Conservatism, meaning to conserve. Roman law is often described as
having been intended to conserve property. Which leaves a simple questions unasked: whose? The Treaty of Agincourt, which expanded
on the idea of a freedom from govt action without just cause, is the same. The answer, of course, is dear old Dad. This idea is the historical root of conservatism. Without that protection, no other
right or freedom can exist; you always exist at the whim of the govt.
Any abridgement, prior to the establishment of just cause, represents
a violation. The goal of giving Elian a better life is laudable.
But the cost is too high. And that is before you add the emotional cost of denying the child the remaining shreds of his family.
1) Do I have the right to inflicit anyone? NO! Do they? NO! Will they accomodate smokers? Only by placing them in front of a firing squad for that IS the general concensus of the non-smoking populus. Don't forget that they're the only ones with rights here. If you don't believe me, talk to some. We used to have a designated area inside but that was revoked. It is now in the middle of a parking lot 2 lots away as dictated by the Feds. They make survivalists sound rational. What's worse is the main agitant at the job chose to work at an old leaky X-ray diffraction machine. And, she does prefer the pregnant smokers in the snow, but then she's from mainland China who believes China freed Tibetans by siezing their self determination.2) 'Twas not I who dodged. That was precisely the point I initiated. I just chose to redirect you back to the question you dodged for that WILL be the question.
3) Don't tell me Vermont style conservatism infected the whole New England. What's New Hampshire's motto now? Live enslaved or die?
4) Good thing we don't use that theory with our equipment at work, we wouldn't be able to predict any laws.
5) I tried reading Sci.Am. but it was too funny to read in a single sitting. My eyes kept watering which prevented further reading. The flagrant use of circular logic was hysterical. I prefer IEEE & ASME, for serious thought provoking articles. Can you recommend a serious unbiased magazine for the natural sciences? Thanks!
6) The problem with prohibition wasn't the law, nor the way they went about it. It was the indecisive implementation. It's like changing your children's bedtime every night. Would they take you seriously even if you occassionally enforced it? That's precisely the disaster we see today. When enforced constantly & consistantly it works wonders. Then, there's today.
7) I know about the AIDS/GRID situation. But, that's yet another dodge.
8) Let us not forget liberal used to mean to free. Now it means to enslave. "The power to tax, is the power to destroy" This I'm sure with which you'd agree. Now, that we suffered all the slings & arrows to create a felxible budget, the liberals want to raise taxes for even more spending despite the contrary advice of Alan Greenspan. Whereas the GOP took full note of his advice & chose to pay down the debt as much as the DNC would allow & send the rest back to re-empower the public with their own money before either side decided to bribe us with our own money. As one who only sees 55% of my $60K gross, I'd appreciate even a couple more percentage points.
just my 2¢
» Mart £ «
1) I tried to parse that, and make a response. What is it, as policy, that you would do differently?
4) Statistics is not logic
5a) My experience has been that when you research a field with a political purpose; you come away unsatisfied. In the case of global warming, the theory has stood up to a relentless attack. The question
at this point is as much political as scientific. At what point do you say the body of work is persuasive; and that we need to respond. I do not have the expertise to answer that. Having said that, i can suggest
a threshold. When the midwest turns from farmland to desert, you can safely say the shit has hit the fan.
6) I am sorry that their level of enforcement did not meet your standards. We have placed a few million people in jail, and it simply has not worked. Low levels, high levels, as i said in an earlier post to you there is only one effective strategy. The Chinese shot drug users, and dealers, on sight. That worked.
All i am i interested in is what works. Creating a more effective approach requires a significant change. So, what would you do differently?
7) Dodge? You insulted the Doctor, i defended. I went out of my way
to do so. In my book a man that can save thousands is a hero.
8) In my lifetime, 3 presidents have cut the budget more than a token amount. Ike, Carter, and Clinton. After the 80's, the idea that Republicans are fiscally prudent is ahistorical in the extreme.
***As one who only sees 55% of my $60K gross, I'd appreciate even a couple more percentage points.I presume you are refering to the withholding tax. That, however, is not the end of your tax story. You and I pay much higher percentage of our income as tax (some say close to 80% or so). You keep paying tax upon tax for every product, every service that you buy. In some products the proportion of tax in the price is astronomical - I believe a gas station gets only few cents for every gallon of gas, a cigarette company only gets about 26 cents per pack. Who gets the rest of that $3 price tag? Yep, it is those who are trying to kill that industry. Actually, they are not doing this, they want it to keep going, so it would keep poroducing huge amounts of money for their benefit.
Funny thing, economics...
***The goal of giving Elian a better life is laudable.
But the cost is too high.What exactly IS that cost? Besides getting our newly found friend Fidel upset?
hi Victor,
you read the posts, Pete made the case quite well.
I can understand your sentiment, but most of the country is glad
the kid is back with the dad. Where he belongs.
I have not posted on this today for a simple reason; i have nothing to say. Still looking for a good analysis. Another reason is the very real possibility that this will go to the Supreme Court.
This looks like it just might be an interesting scrap
between the Executive, and Judicial branch. There has always been a certain fuzziness about who gets what between the two.
... that is moot point at best, albeit mindlessly populistic & completely irrelevant in a Republic, lest we succumb to the Democratic tyranny of mob rule.You're better than that. I was looking for an honest rebuttal, not spin.
just my 2¢
» Mart £ «
***hi Victor,
you read the posts, Pete made the case quite well.Sorry, can't agree with you. I thought it was intellectually offensive. I didn't read most of it.
***I can understand your sentiment, but most of the country is glad
the kid is back with the dad.I have been in minority before and that doesn't concern me. I know that most people want this. I am sorry polls play that important role nowdays. We were NOT supposed to have a democracy, but it is moving in that direction.
***Where he belongs.
I have not posted on this today for a simple reason; i have nothing to say. Still looking for a good analysis. Another reason is the very real possibility that this will go to the Supreme Court.No, I doubt it. I think it is over and done with. They effectively blocked any chance of justice in this case.
***This looks like it just might be an interesting scrap
between the Executive, and Judicial branch. There has always been a certain fuzziness about who gets what between the two.Perhaps, but not in this case any longer.
Maybe when Clinton gets his days in court after leaving office... I doubt that too. Too slick.
Here in California they have lowered the blood alcohol level to .08 for purposes of issuing citations for Driving Under the Influence (DUI). Yet it has been proven that a single dose of most over-the-counter cold medicines impair driving to a greater degree than the aforementioned .08 blood alcohol level! Hypocrisy? Hell no, just another way to raise money to pay the outlandish salaries of our state administrators and employees since we have voted down any tax increases. Moral: The government can do anything they want to satisfy their enormous appetites.
***seeing how his current wife's kid is still in cuba, along with his mother, I don't think juan will be asking for asylum regardless. and he's still the kid's father, no matter what country he comes from, no matter what his political beliefs are, no matter how he may or may not be used by castro or reno or hitler or herod, he's still the kid's father.He is, however, the US court has decided that the boy can legally request the asylum. It is supposed to be that it takes court decision to overrule the court decision, not an early morning storm trooper intrusion.
No one would have a problem with the case handles within the law. It was not.
You can't tell me the spin-mister can't out manuever Castro. He learned from the best 3 decades ago on his visit to USSR & he's only gotten better at lying since.
Victor: If you like Giancarlo, Swept Away is on Bravo this Thursday night @ 8:00PM.Barry
...part of it, anyway. So thank you, Barry. Giancarlo's face and acting are unforgettable.Did YOU see it?
I like the picture, and have seen it before a couple of times. Let me see if I can talk my wife into watching it once again - I would not mind.Thank you for the rec.
That was some picture, Victor. And today, I was reading the conspiracy theories in the paper, the one where the government is brain washing him in secret and releasing touched up pictures as part of the PR campaign. What a botched up mess! This whole issue has been nothing but political from day 1. If any other kid was being held against the wishes of the father, the police would have been there that afternoon taking the kid away. Reno's legacy, Waco and Elian, and Clinton's? Naw, we dont need to go there.BTW: Have you seen Jakob the Liar? You might enjoy it. Robin William's continues to impress me as having tremendous talent. It's the story of the plight of a community of Polish Jews trying to survive in their German created ghetto and maintain their hope and sanity. I felt it was reasonably realistic and avoided (almost entirely), the typical Hollywood ending.
> > > "If any other kid was being held against the wishes of the father, the police would have been there that afternoon taking the kid away."Huh? Against the dying wishes of the mother & the previously expressed wishes of the father?
It's definitely lock & load time. We've got to reinstitute the U.S.Constitution from the domestic enemies.
These people are scaring the shit out of me.
--- Huh? Against the dying wishes of the mother & the previously expressed wishes of the father?It's definitely lock & load time. We've got to reinstitute the U.S.Constitution from the domestic enemies.
These people are scaring the shit out of me. ---
Go to a movie and chill man! They are NOT coming to get you. Trust me on this one. :-)
joe
& who will be left when they will?
...if that is of any comfort.Like AIDS, once you get them, there is no getting rid.
Victor,
we can agree on this! In about a year he will be gone. That, at least,
should give you a smile.
I doubt it. Is there any question in anyone's mind that this !@(#*%^& won't be dictating divisive rhetoric from the sidelines, if not dragged kicking & screeming from 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue.
***Victor,
we can agree on this! In about a year he will be gone. That, at least,
should give you a smile.As many people around me were screaming bloody murder when he took over, I told them that this country has tremedous potential of digesting junk and still surviving - much like most healthy bodies. We could tolerate certain amount of poison because we had a pretty good momentum going for us. Personally to me Clinton was largely irrelevant and insignificant.
The problem will be if we keep adding that kind of poison to our system. At some point it is bound to collapse.
...once pointed out to me that the strength of our system is its constitution and institutions - judicial, legislative, executive and the basis of our underlying economic system. His point was that in the short run politicians frankly have very little if any real impact. In fact, his attitude was one of politicians being little more than overhead with a propensity for grandstanding but little real influence. If any one really doubts this - consider that we have experienced the single greatest sustained period of prosperity under the reign of Mr. C than at any time in our country's history. Does anyone think it really had anything top do with him?The longer I live and observe the more convinced I become my friend was right.
In its own way it strikes me that if our elected officials and potential candidates are wasting their time in the endless debate over a single child they have less time on their hands to screw up the underlying system that really drives our country's success.
joe
They work quietly until the roof caves in.
I'm worried about what they're doing while the headlines are occupied with Elian.
***That was some picture, Victor. And today, I was reading the conspiracy theories in the paper, the one where the government is brain washing him in secret and releasing touched up pictures as part of the PR campaign. What a botched up mess! This whole issue has been nothing but political from day 1. If any other kid was being held against the wishes of the father, the police would have been there that afternoon taking the kid away.I see your point. However, we ROUTINELY take children from their parents when we have reason to be concerned about their wellbeing - let us not forget this.
***Reno's legacy, Waco and Elian, and Clinton's? Naw, we dont need to go there.
No. Not without full armor plus chemical suit.
***BTW: Have you seen Jakob the Liar? You might enjoy it. Robin William's continues to impress me as having tremendous talent. It's the story of the plight of a community of Polish Jews trying to survive in their German created ghetto and maintain their hope and sanity. I felt it was reasonably realistic and avoided (almost entirely), the typical Hollywood ending.
My wife is too sensitive to the concentration camps/ghetto subject, so I would not feel comfortable forcing that on her. I guess my chances of seeing that movie are not too great. So I will have to take your word for it. I suspect that might affect my view of Williams unfairly - I see him as quite capable of something he had not done yet. I have not seen him in any roles that required tremendous depth of character study, and perhaps that one could be one of them. But I certainly do not put him in the same category as most Hollywood clowns - the Fords, the Costners, the Leonardos. He is one intelligent individual. Unfortunately many good actors never get the roles they deserve. Let's hope the fate will be more kind to Robin.
NT
...when it came out. To large degree has lost its relevancy since then, but I remember our rather strong reaction to it back then.There was another very funny one few years back, I think it was caled "Window to Paris" or something close. It was definitely worth watching - see if you can get it if yo have not seen it. Lots of ethnical inside humor plus general human themes.
> > I see your point. However, we ROUTINELY take children from their parents when we have reason to be concerned about their wellbeing - let us not forget this.Ah yes, we do not generally take chidren from women unless they are in jail. Father's are rarely awarded custody. We probably should take more children away as there are certainly more than enough good folks that want to adopt. Tough issue, but is living in Cuba enough to deny custody?
On Robin, try Patch Adams. He does deserve the right role IMO.
And yes, we CAN decide what is right and wrong. Things would be different had his father ANY say in all this. He doesn't.Also, an interesting stastics as read by Dr. Laura. Women are four times more likely to kill their children than men. Among about 1200 children killed, 900 were by women.
About 600 biological mothers killed their children, as opposed to about 30 or so biological fathers.
Numbers are from my memory, I am sure they are off some, but not much.
True, I'd feel the same if my ex had tried to take my kids to Russia.Honestly, Victor, I think that the father just has to eventually pull the asylum card. Has he got his family with him?
But I saw something on TV (I know realiable statistics there), but while ball players bail in a heart beat, Cuban musicians seem to want to stay. I don't get that.
Juan really cannot safely play the asylum card because his new wife was required to leave her young son (from her first marriage) back in Cuba. Juan also has his parents and other close relatives who would be made to pay the price should Juan decide to stay in the USA. Also, how forgiving and understanding do you think Castro is going to be to Elian if Elian returns to Cuba and says something negative about Cuba or Castro? Publically it will be "the poor child was brainwashed while in the USA", privately there will be hell to pay. In fact, there is hell to pay on a good day!
Thanks Pat, I figured Castro had to be holding someone ransom.
***Honestly, Victor, I think that the father just has to eventually pull the asylum card. Has he got his family with him?
There is no speak of a chance for him. You remember, he didn't travel here like a *normal* human being, he was brought on a charter US-owned private jet, put in the armored limo right away, and sped away to the closed Cuban compound. With Cuban security personnel around him full time there is no chance, and he knows it.It is impossible for a free individual to comprehand the limitations that people in totalitarian countries live under. You can't even imagine what people had to go through to travel abroad, even to the super-communist countries like Bulgaria or ah, Cuba. You would have to go through humiliation hell and you would not go unless you were leaving hostages behind - your close family. People were screened and then screened, and then you would still have defectors. Most of them had to plan their escape for months - it was not just walking across some line.
Imagine that father running to a cop and asking for asylum? Why, our brave government would turn him back in a heart beat - in the best interest of his child, I am sure.
No, not gonna happen, no escape.
***But I saw something on TV (I know realiable statistics there), but while ball players bail in a heart beat, Cuban musicians seem to want to stay. I don't get that.
I can't speak for Cuban musicians, but in many American Symphony orchestras Russian names are the norm (much like in the hockey teams). However, that market is small and the supply is large. Most musicians don't make all that much, with only few exceptions. I have no idea how good the Cuban musicians are, but I am sure the competition is stiff.
There was a joke at one time regarding the Russian immigrants to Israel: If a man is getting off the Moscow plane in Tel Aviv, and he has no violin case with him, that means he is a pianist.
Great majority of them had to find some other occupation.
Sure, it's impossible for anyone here to fully understand what it takes to escape from these countries. But my Assyrian friend has told me about escaping from Iraq at 16 and leaving his parents and family behind. And there was a Chek partner of mine that did the same without his family, so I thnk I have some glimpse of how bad it must be to make these decisions and take such great risks.There's no doubt that we agree on one point: the incompentency and lack of guts in the Clinton administration is astounding. Even if Juan did make a plea for asylum, Clinton wouldn't stand up to Castro. The man has no principles and no morals.
Russian immigrants? Our housekeeper was a college instructor in Moscow. She isn't going back and she'll do any work she can get. It's sad to see those skills wasted, but she's far happier doing whatever she can here than the alternative there. Her parents tell her that it's gotten worse than ever, but I'm sure you know that.
Q: How much does a college instructor makes in Moscow today?A: In the $20 to $40 per month range.
That is what our cleaning lady makes for about 90 minutes of blowing dust around.
And she doesn't give one rusty f..., either. For about two months the bag was missing from the vacuum cleaner. She would still dutifully run it over the floor - as long as it left the proper brush marks on the carpet it was allright in her mind. As they say in high end: garbage in - garbage out.
lol, I didn't know that Alexandria did your house too ;)
.
> > > > but while ball players bail in a heart beat, Cuban musicians seem to want to stay. I don't get that.What's to get?
It's all $$$$$$$$$$
The tighter the oligarchy a regime, the greater the funding for classical arts. It was true & is true.
How much are baseball payers paid in both countries?
I've got a Chinese friend who believes that the communists are liberating Tibet because of their funding influx, as if one could put a price on one's soul. He demissed the Tibetan country because it was religous. So, ours based on Christian principles, what's the point? That Budist principles are irrelavant.
He still didn't get it when I said that according to his logic we must invade China because we could infuse for money to the populus. To do otherwise would be unethical according to you. I couldn't go any further because I don't understand what flaws he found in my logic. He just muttered something about I'm wrong & walked away.
hi,
sorry, Victor, but i could not get away from that picture.
Front page of my paper, local news, national news, it seemed all
the news media were doing was Elian, Elian, Elian. Perhaps we live on a different planet.
Then there is the rule of law. That family broke the law; and
regardless of any court rulings, they will pay a heavy price.If it was my kid, it would be a subartic day in Miami before i gave them a second chance.
In the past, ethnic groups were not allowed power until after they had become Americanised. This, obviously, did not happen with los Cubanos. What drove this situation was a few, very rich, very old, expatriate Cubans. Cuban culture is a gerontocracy to begin with, add to that, the old farts have been buying the best government money can buy. Do you really think this situation would have lasted more than a week or two otherwise? Everything i have read about the INS suggests otherwise.
Lastly, give me an alternative. Pretend you're Reno,now deal with it. You have a duty to fulfill, to uphold the rule of law. In this case, several laws, and a treaty.
> > > "That family broke the law"Nobody had legal custody at the time of seizure & heir Reno knew it. Thus, she was upholding the Clintin monarchy. If they had a warrant it wasn't flashed at the time as proper procedure. The one they have now is most likely post dated. They circumvented the Judicial branch once again to apease the dictator & Castro.
> > > "If it was my kid, it would be a subartic day in Miami before i gave them a second chance."
True. Lock & load it's time to go fascist hunting
> > > "What drove this situation was a few, very rich, very old, expatriate Cubans."
When was Castro expatriated?
> > > "Cuban culture is a gerontocracy to begin with, add to that, the old farts have been buying the best government money can buy."
Can you say agism? Or, is the rich f'n prez allowed free reign over the constition w/o query? If it takes money to do so in our culture, who are you to say they can't spend it judiciously for this innoscent boy's behalf?
> > > "Everything i have read about the INS suggests otherwise."
Everything I've read about Reno's administration says that she's probably brooding that she didn't get to kill Elian & blame it on the family.
> > > "Pretend you're Reno"
where's the cyanide?
> > > "now deal with it."
move the father out of Castro's control & have a happy family reunion.
> > > "In this case, several laws, and a treaty."
... to trample on. Hope Reno had fun distroying the U.S.Constition.
***Lastly, give me an alternative. Pretend you're Reno,Brrrrrr... Can I have a different one? Be kind to me.
***now deal with it. You have a duty to fulfill, to uphold the rule of law. In this case, several laws, and a treaty.
Actually, this is far easier than it might sound (guess who made it sound worth than it is?). The negotiation was moving fast towards setting up a safehouse in Florida, where the boy would be living with his father awaiting the court decision - all this in 100% compliance with *US* law. The layers from BOTH sides would be allowed to visit them and get ready for court trial. Again, the boy and his father...
However, the worst remaining mother...er on Earth, the decaying stinky relic, that Castro piece of ... would not allow this to happen. So their side simply vetoed the deal right before storming in took place. Now there is no way the court can make an unbiased decision.
Hi Victor,
Sorry, but you led with your chin that time, you want the big gals job, you get the big gals shoes ( and may heaven help us ;)
The family was playing games, breaking agreements. As to the last paragraph, no argument. I would only add that the Cuban elite
in Miami used the boy to further their political agenda.
And it had become quite clear to me that their agenda did not include *any* sort of deal. Perhaps i was not the only one to figure that out?
With Castro on one side, and the Miami elite on the other,
there wasn't much hope for a amicable. Bunch of old geezers using a small boy to play tit for tat. A pox upon both their houses.
Btw, i don't mean to be rude, but i would like to ask you a question. Your mastery of english is excellent; but i can cut back on words like 'pox' or 'amicable' if they cause a problem with your understanding what i write.
who do you want to have guardianship?The relatives or Castro?
We've been dancing around this basic question for we know that the father won't have legal guardianship in Cuba. It's against their constitution.
***A pox upon both their houses.***Your mastery of english is excellent; but i can cut back on words like 'pox' or 'amicable' if they cause a problem with your understanding what i write.
Hardly any need for that. I think I read Romeo and Juliet when I was thirteen or so. In Russian, of course. There that phrase reads "Tchuma Na Oba Vashikh Doma".
As far as "amicable" is concerned, it appears that we have done anything it takes, including assuming the Monica position, just to please the bloodiest tyrant. We did that to please the Red Chinese some time ago, now this shitty corps.
I shall never accept the notion that "they" are just like us, just a bit different.
Don't forget, no other political force had ever killed nearly as many people as the communists. Nazi are school kidds when it comes to mass murder. Castro is from *that* crowd.
yes Victor,
Stalin's butchery is beyond comprehension. But... we are
supposedly a country of law. Our treaty agreements, and our laws,
are pretty clear on this. If we do not respect our own laws, and traditions, we will become monsters as well. Occasionally there are no good answers. He is the Dad, his wife and family are in Cuba. So he will go home.
***yes Victor,
Stalin's butchery is beyond comprehension.Is it? I don't think so. Once you comprehand the nature of Communism, the rest follows without much effort. Communism is not about happy children drinking free milk in the kindergarten, it is about the Gulag and untold millions shot in the back of their heads without trial. It is about people being murdered for telling silly joke, for not displaying enough enthusiasm.
That's what communists do.
***But... we are
supposedly a country of law. Our treaty agreements, and our laws,
are pretty clear on this.You are painting yourself into tight corner. The *court* had made decision that the boy had right to represent himself and ask for asylum. Scumbags didn't like it, they simply took law in their hands. They simply showed us their middle finger.
Guess what, it is not over yet. There are still legal venues left and there are going to be hearings in Congress.
***If we do not respect our own laws, and traditions, we will become monsters as well.We have seen mostly gross disrespect for law lately. Blatant one. Arrogant one. Tell me how Clintons/Renos relate to what you call "traditions".
***Occasionally there are no good answers. He is the Dad, his wife and family are in Cuba. So he will go home.As the NKVD butchers used to say - son of Enemy of People is Enemy of People. That's why they routinely destroyed the whole families, small children and old ones.
Again, the law had stated that the boy was allowed to get the due process - application, hearing, lawyer representation. Reno/Clinton are denying him that right.
Court decision is LAW. Clintons maneuvres, Reno's actions, INS rules are all tactics.
if a 6 year-old has the right to ask for asylum, what else can follow? will 6 year-olds be able to divorce their parents? should 6-year-olds be tried as adults. i'm not sure a 6 year old is in the position to make a decision like that for him or herself. parental consent will mean nothing if we go down that road.
***if a 6 year-old has the right to ask for asylum, what else can follow? will 6 year-olds be able to divorce their parents? should 6-year-olds be tried as adults.Dave, that was not my decision, that was not your decision, that was the decision of US court. The judge heard the case and made his decision. That is as legal as it gets. The legal way of changing that decision is by presenting your case in court and winning the argument there. The two sides were heading for that trial, until Reno/Castro team simply vetoed it.
No one would simple accept the 6-year old position, but both sides woud have chance to present their arguments.
***i'm not sure a 6 year old is in the position to make a decision like that for him or herself. parental consent will mean nothing if we go down that road.Ironically, it has been Hillary who used to argue that children shoud have the same rights as their parents - including divorcing them.
What goes around...
In addition, we DO, as civilized people, take children from their parents when there is reason to believe that child's welfare could be at risk.
So my position is not to simply give the child the asylum, it is to give the lawyers opportunity to present the case and let the US court to decide.
I don't think doing things that way would jeopardize anyone. It would make Castro upset, however, and that is something Clinton is not ready to accept.
hi Victor,
this case falls under federal jurisdiction. My understanding is that a state lacks the authority to make a determination in such matters.
the INS doesn't have jurisdiction to kidnap a child (whose guardianship is still under question in the Judicial branch) under a writ to search for illegal weapons.
It will generally follow what it is told to do.It is now up to the court to uphold the law. Courts have done that before and it might do it this time too. It might not - there is about equal chance, I think.
Even if that boy is forced to go back, you can be sure that every year thousands will escape. Like thousands before escaped from other countries, like the hundreds so desperate they ran openly across the German border only to get shot by their "countrymen".
No matter how badly some will try to put human mask on Castro and his cohort, they will always show their ugly teeth.
Be sure, that given more time this administration would bring us whole new circle of "friends" - all the usual comrads like Sadat, Quadafy, etc.
Nah, ain't gonna happen...
...no one had questioned the right of that court to make the decision.It was not a court in Florida, BTW, it was, I believe, one in Georgia. I presume they knew what they were doing. As they had rendered their decision, I don't recall any challenges. I believe the decsion was just ignored.
I understand that that 11th Circuit Court of Appeal (I hope I got this right) is now considering the motion that keeping the child under the supervision of Cuban security personnel and with only Clinton's attorney visiting him violates that court's rulling. I believe that motion had been filed and will be rulled on some time soon.
If anyone has more accurate info on that, I would appreciate it.
Last night on WHYY Channel 12, at 7 PM EDT on The News Hour With Jim Lehrer, Janet Reno was interviewed by Jim Lehrer and answered every question brought up by this string, and more. Following the questions and answers section, the Republican Senator from Pennsylvania, Arlin Spector (you remember--the progenator of the "Single Bullet Theory" --that blasted through Kennedy's skull, paused in mid-air for a few seconds, turned, and wounded Connelly--shattering his bones, and ended up in pristine condition, lying on the gurney in the hospital -- Arlin Spector; the pubic-hair-on-the-coke-can Arlin Spector, who tore into Anita Hill's reluctant testamony to congress about her abusive boss, turning the victem into the villan as it ever was and is when a woman accuses a man of sexual misconduct, the axeman Arlin Spector, from the "Land of Giants", who never saw a dirty job he couldn't handle to advance the cause of partisan politics and keep the whole truth blurred or even hidden from an apathetic electorate, mister muddy waters himself) sputtered and spouted a weak and unconvincing rebuttal--his jowels hanging low--flashing me back to the Checkers speach of another infamous Republican from this country's shameful past.The district court ruling that the boy could speak for himself, and the three petitions written, signed and sent-in by the Miami relatives "but expressing the wishes of the child" were given due process, and the initial court ruling was overturned, and custody awarded to the father, and the jusridiction was clearly Federal and not State, and all the rights of everyone were protected under the full weight of the Rule of Law and the Constitution. Everything was legal, everything was proper. The boy is required by court order to stay in this country until this is resolved by due process. You can be certain that the poor boy will not be allowed to go back to Cuba with his father and siblings until the last appeal is exhausted--and even then I'd be surprised if some kind of deal is not worked-out that eveyone ends up a US citizen--should that be their heart's desire. Everyone will have an equal and fair chance to make their claim--even Castro, assuming he's still alive or in power when this is over.
But I know Trent Lott wants to go through another congressional investigation, and perhaps another impeachment hearing is in order, because God knows that's all his kind know how to do, since they can't do anyone any good, except to keep themselves on TV as the election draws nearer by causing constant suffering of the weak, like that poor child, the powerless, like his father, the "innocent" and easily maniplated, like Paula Jones, and yes like Linda Tripp,--the stupid and trecherous. That's how they make their living. Trent and Jesse and all their kind love this old divide and conquer tactic--it always works. And that pussy Gore is wishy-washing his way out of comitting to any point of view that might offend a voter or a source of campaign funds--aren't we surprised by that! And the press plays along, for truely, if anyone is completely lacking in morals, character, a code of ethics, and a sense of human decency, it is the Fourth Estate, accountable to no-one--oh, except for those newspapers and television stations that are wholy-owned subsidiaries of Phillip Morris, or any number of the Fortune 500. You can't trust anyone.
Now I don't hold any ill feelings against those who hate the President, hate Janet Reno, hate anyone that Rush tells them to hate--because I know those people are pathetic, and deserving of our fogiveness and sympathy, but mostly because they don't vote, which is why Clinton is a two-term president, and survived impeachment, and why the only thing turned-up by the most intensive and expensive and longest-lasting personal investigation in the history of the world--an investigation that continues, at taxpayer expense, to this day--has discovered that men--any man--is, will be, can be, stupid about sex, again and again, and can't seem to help it, no matter who they are or who might find out about it--and when cornered will lie about it, again and again, because sex is a private matter between consenting adults, and that's the way it should stay, and the majority of voting citizens don't want the Republican party looking at their privates, no matter where they choose to share them or with whom. I think that's called Natural Selection--and it's been pretty effective at populating the Earth with humans, and pretty good at eliminating the "sexually self-controlled" from the gene pool. But Ken Starr, the patron saint of the tobacco industry, didn't know this, because back at Pepperdine they don't teach the Theory of Evolution, because the world is only about 5000 years old, and there wasn't time what with all the wire-tapping and good cop/ bad cop sweat-them-out-in-the-cooler classes and all, so he can be excused for his foolish waste of your time and money, this time, especially since he himself has admitted he should have quit long ago. Ken, you sick bastard, I forgive you, but in case you haven't noticed, your partisan "friends" have not, so watch your back--they are gonna "get" somebody-they're still mad as hell that they can't seem to get the Silent Majority to go along. For every foaming-mad complainer about the way the Justice department "handled" this case, there's hundreds that think the boy belongs with his father--months ago.
I'm glad you gave me the opportunity to vent, and agree with "late" that I too think that finally something good for this motherless son has happened, and we should leave partisan infighting out of it, and leave that family alone to solve their differences legally, away from the prying eyes of the world, and the political opportunists.
Good things will come of this. We strive to look for the Good in everyone, always. That is the way of Christ. That is a traditonal family value. More than any single thing, it is the laws of this county, fairly enforced and upheld, that has made America the dream of men both free and oppressed the world over. It is the law-givers, from Moses to the Founding Fathers, whose legacy is a vision of the right way to live, to whom we owe all we have and hope to have, and those who are tasked to enforce the law are deserving of every respect, courtesy, and support we are able to give. Janet Reno is following a tradition that passes back into the very dawn of human society. We owe her a great debt for taking on the monumental burden she carries, and for what she represents.
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Please no foul language!
MiKe
sorry, I was calmly answering his hatred paragraph by paragraph until I reached the point where he invoked our saviours name as an excuse to spew his malicous misinformation & I LOST IT!!!I erased my text & exposed his obvious problem in straight terms
i am looking for someone who can provide a dispassionate legal analysis of the situation. If you find something, please let me know.
The treaty obligations appear straightforward enough, as does the
tradition of placing a child in the custody of the parents as a matter of course. But this situation involves skirting both matters (on the side of the relatives); and on the side of the govt, whether their handling of the situation is proper. To be honest, what i am hearing is a lot of hot air; but i like to keep track of such things when i can.
***i am looking for someone who can provide a dispassionate legal analysis of the situation. If you find something, please let me know.
The treaty obligations appear straightforward enough, as does the
tradition of placing a child in the custody of the parents as a matter of course. But this situation involves skirting both matters (on the side of the relatives); and on the side of the govt, whether their handling of the situation is proper. To be honest, what i am hearing is a lot of hot air; but i like to keep track of such things when i can.You got the point here - there is a disagreement. Perhaps both sides are not acting properly.
That menas: COURT should decide. The safe house was the right step - they unite, stay together, the due process goes on, attorneys have access to their clients. In few weeks the decision is made - and end of story.
This was vetoed by Clinton/Castro team. Now we have executive decisions instead of court ones.
x
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