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What is everyone's thoughts on these two media? On the one hand, I believe we often think of TV as being inferior to films, and that is probably true for much of TV shows. However, there are some shows that must be seen as very good, in part because they have--vis a vis films--major character development and a someone longer time-frame to develop characters and plots.I'm not referring exclusively to American TV either--many of the best dramas I have seen are from Japanese TV--shows that would run about 10-20 episodes long--kind of an extended mini-series that one does not see in the US.
Just wanted to hear what everyone else thinks about this. Thanks.
Cetaele (aka Bob)
Follow Ups:
I've enjoyed reading everyone's response. I wonder if some TV shows might be more enjoyable if removed from TV itself, as seems to be happening when they come out in DVD format. This allows one to watch the show without the interruptions of commercials, and allows one to watch as many episodes as one wants to.
Cetaele (aka Bob)
Of course made for tv mini-series or television shows can be better than movies. But there are plenty of horrid movies.But many shows have long story arcs and character development that auduiences get used to and even feel like real people. I worked in an office for years andpeople would often discuss poor Niles Crane trying to vie for the affection of Daphne Moon. Sitcoms are set up typically as short segmants of trivial situations with a punch-line every 2 minutes. Nevetheless that is true of most comedies. Film has a time constraint of ~1.5 - 2hours to not only develop characters place them in a plot of some sort, execute and follow-up all sub-plots and manage to say something relevant. Interestingly Kelsey Grammer's character has been on tv for 20 years - that's some character which many would argue seems like a real person. There is no higher praise one can be afforded.
TV's downfall is to keep it consistantly at a high level - and even shows considered "very good" like a Frasier cannot keep it up consistantly - and mostly never know when to quit.
A lot can be learned from John Cleese's Faulty Towers. They made 11or 12 episodes all about equal and stopped. Stopped because they could not keep it to that high a level. American shows are usualy spent by season 4 and they hang on for years after that.
The Sci-fi shows like Start Trek:TNG is another example(in the reverse because it was terrible to start and got much better), are also in that veign where it surpassed all of the film versions. But this type of show was about ideas - 19th century European utopia set in the future where the Utopia is all but attained. In a 2 hour film it usually degenerates into an action flick like the Star Wars movies. Star Trek DS9 had entire season arcs with nuance and depth no film no matter how good could possibly attain. This is not to say I particularly think it's BETTER but from a depth of plot perspective this media has supremacy - quality of direction, writing etc are another matter - and TV is usually subject to certain restraints films are not - like television standards of decency etc.
Nevertheless - a Mini-series like Britain's I, Claudius is as good as any film I've seen made and certainly superior to what most film snobs think are the greatest films. Damn brilliant acting historially fascinating lots of blood and nuditiy and incest intrigue etc - great work.
Cateale,I'm on the verge of tossing my slowly failing 27" Sony out the window and using the $70 per month cable charge to buy better tubes for my SP10 and a new cartridge.
But, there were three television series that I think must rank as the intellectual, artistic, and dramatic equals with some of the best feature films:
"I, Claudius"
"The Jewel in the Crown"
"Brideshead Revisited"Note the country of origin (and the decades since) of these three series.
Ephemere has a very good point that the success of this kind of televsion has to do with working within the medium and not imitating cinema. A long series does not need the severe time compression that movies must use to establish drama, so it becomes possible in televison to use nuance that would be too time-consuming in features. Plus, somuch of movies now imitates television but with higher production values and unwatchably hysterical editing..(re" Matrix Reloaded"
These series did what televsion could have done in the US in the absence of commercial pressures- and I know several of the wierd, insecure, second-guessing bottom line poll sitters involved in American network TV. Just when I think television has reached bottom, I hear of a new deal with Paris Hilton or Geraldo as "Senior Correspondent". "Reality Television" should be called "Prozac-Schizoid/Psychotic-Escapist Televsion".
When TV is done well, it can be done well, but well done things are rare!
Thanks for the rant opportunity- I feel well enough now to take a bit more of CNN..
Cheers,
Bambi B
I would add "The Duchess of Duke Street" and "Upstairs, Downstairs." ANd may I also add the original "Forsythe Saga", "Edward, the King", and "The Six Wives of Henry VIII?" All are outstanding efforts from the land of my forebears, Great Britian.There have been some exceptional American series. I would count the first couple years of "West Wing" as top television. I would vote for the long-running "M-A-S-H" and the mini-series "Lonesome Dove." One could point to some of the fine productions - mostly live, one episode "teleplays" - such as "Requium For a Heavyweight" and "Marty." Then there was the often exceptional "Rod Serling's Twilight Zone."
My vote for the best dramatic series of all would be "I, Claudius," which is astonishingly good. I also love the original "Black Adder" series and the old "Fall and Rise of Reginald Perrin" along with the magnificently daffy "Fawlty Towers," "Tracy Ullman" and the best comedy show of all time, "Monty Python's Flying Circus." I'm also partial to some later shows like "As Time Goes By" and the splendid "Band of Brothers."
Television and movies are mostly crap. Gems like "I, Claudius" and "Monty Python" are much too rare. And things are getting worse. Television is drowning in a sea of banality and stupid shows where no bad idea is wasted and no bad joke goes untold.
I'll add Dr. Who to the list - longest running sci-fi show for kids ever made. Campy cheese it may be but damn it was hilarious fun.
I'm a fan of all the various Dr. Who actors but feel that the series was at its peak with Tom Baker. I do love the way each different actor colored the character of Dr. Who to suit their own personalities. Baker and Jon Pertwee are my favorites but all are enjoyable.Sure, it's campy but it's also very entertaining.
Wouldn't you just love to have access to a Tardis for just one day? American phone booths were never as exciting as that classic London phone box!
"EXTERMINATE! EXTERMINATE!"
I agree with you and those two were my favorite Doctors as well - Baker I grew up with and enjoyed his companions even K-9. I did not mind the guy who followed too much either - Peter Davidson. Then it all fell apart.They made a tv movie in the 80's with the guys from the movie Withnail and I. It tanked unfortunately. If they made it today they would need to tke a bit of the camp out and serious it up a bit.
I always wanted one Star Trek: TNG episode to have the Tardis mateiralize on the bridge - Tom Baker to come out and have some quick cameo line - "You haven't seen any daleks Have you?" Or "would you like a Jelly baby?"
They have had Baker's Doctor on the Simpsons in the background a few times with the comic book guy. I was amused. He lives on. I always wanted a robot Dalek but when I was in England they were impossible to find??? Weird - in North Ameica you can get this kind of crap - you'd think in London you could get some Dr. Who memorobilia given how long it was on the telly.
that was a brilliant series(!) that did not even slightly nod towards cinema; I would rather not be reminded of the "decades since" part tho'...
Grins
Ok those that hooked me: Sherlock Holmes, Rumpole of the Bailey, As Time Goes By, Inspector Morse.
"She who must be obeyed" also concurs.
(from RUMPOLE OF THE BAILEY)Jeremy Brett was a splendid Sherlock Holmes who almost made me forget the immortal Basil Rathbone.
And don't forget "Poirot" with the great David Souche (sp?). I don't know if he bests Peter Ustinov in the role but he certainly comes close.
Don't forget the old "P.G. Wodehouse Presents."
Especially a novel by Charles Dickens -- they were mostly published in serial format.Other fine series: The Wire, Oz, Six Feet Under, The Pretender, and yes, NYPD Blue.
clark
Two words...
The SimpsonsTwo more words...
David LettermanBoth very long-running, brilliant at their peak, and absolutely meant for TV.
Don't try to make TV and cinema the same (mini-series). Realize that they're different.
TV good!
99% of the time they are lowest common denominator junk. The medium is too restricting because of time constraints, commercial breaks ruining the continuity and broadcast TVs arcane restrictions towards sex and violence. Unfortunately, these restrictions are constantly pushed to their limits soley as a means of . . . pushing the limits. So often it's done purely for the titllation factor, not because it serves the story.Exceptions to this rule are stuff like the Sopranos and Band of Brothers. But keep in mind that these programs don't have to adhere to 2 of the 3 problems listed above. And they actually use the time constraint issue to their advantage.
The typical US TV shows are trash, agreed. But those other ones are not even related.
Dennis Potters Pennies from Heaven (Bob Hoskins) and The Singing Detective (Michael Gambon, Joanne Whalley-Kilmer)
The Prisoner (Patrick McGoohan)
Some episodes of I Love Lucy (Lucille Ball, Desi Arnez) esp./ first series, but not allWhen TV is good, it can very very good, certainly the equal of cinema with more scope for plot and character development
Happens not very often tho'Grins
That would be "Firefly", "Buffy the Vampire Slayer", and "Angel".
And, Joss is shooting a movie, "Serenity", which is "Firefly" for
the big screen, same cast as the late, great TV series. Regards,J.R.
before getting into TV and directing Miami Vice
My favorite Mann film is "Thief" (sometimes titled Violent Streets) starring James Caan, which has a soundtrack by Tangerine Dream
When Caan did his Actors studio TV bit; he claimed his role as Frank in "Thief" was the one role he had enjoyed the most in his career...Grins
While it is possible to recall a few great mini-series (British, often), I still feel ALL of them do carry the seal of made-for-TV, with the inevitable hard seams between one-hour episodes, low budget production that is evident in many areas, etc, etc.I think the better ones can be enjoyable and should be enjoyed, but for what they are, as I am not aware of any that would raise to the artistic achievement level we tend to associate with the best films.
There must be reason why no great movie director ever done a mini-series.
So use them as a refreshing drink, but not as great wine.
can be very entertaining and well-made. So can other Asian shows, dramas, including Korean. And you are right that the best of the breed usually run for one or two dozen episodes, plenty of time to develop character, story, but not Soooo long as to stagnate (like American daytime soaps!).
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