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In Reply to: Persona posted by Victor Khomenko on June 28, 2004 at 06:46:15:
Victor,Good to hear some comments on one of my favourite Bergmans- though this is a movie that has such an intense atmosphere for me I only like to see it every few years. And a good dose of Bergman lasts and lasts. The only Bergman I like more often is the very quiet "Wild Strawberries".
I love the idea of confusing Peter and Paul- gives a bit of the "Passion" to "Persona"!
Interesting too is the subject of subtitles and dubbing. I find subtitles very distracting, but prefer them by far to dubbing. I can't imagine "Seven Samurai" with some American voice for Mifune- the quick, staccato rhythm and odd cheers/cries of the Japanese to me heightens the urgency and exotic atmosphere. One movie that worked well enough for me dubbed is my favourite submarine movie- "Das Boot". This was a surprise as the German is perfectly clear in the original, but the dubbed version is well acted and quite natural for dubbed. Since there is no dialogue in other languages- except the singing of "Tipperary"- there is never the ackwardness silliness that occurs in "Hunt for Red October" in which the Russians are all either Scottish (Connery) or Americans (Neill)- then the "real" American arrive to confuse everyone! As I've gotten older I seem to have less and less tolerance for actors who appear as different nationalities or speaking English with those goofball accents (re: W. Ryder in "B.S.'s Dracula").
I've never seen a dubbed Bergman and I think I would miss the strange singing sound of the Swedish. Think of "Seventh Seal" with Kevin Costner as von Sydow.
Cheers,
Bambi B
PS: Say, Victor, go ahead and ask me what time it is! That would create another opportunity to look at my new watch. -And, I will need to look at it at least 400 times per day for the next 10 years to amortize it!
Follow Ups:
What did you get?Sounds like we both come from the "I hate American dubbing" school, and as I said, this was my first positive experience. I want to find out who dubbed Alma, as the actress did good job. Truly.
The Hunt for Red October... well, it was laughing all along hearing Sean do Russian. He opened up with the phrase that could only be written buy a Berkeley born Hollywood scriprwrite, who stumbled upon the Russian dictionary and thought just linking a couple of words would mean he spoke Russian. That sentence: "Holodryga... i surovo!" makes no sense at all, but hey, it worked!
It's been easily fifteen years since I saw the Wild Strawberries, so it is now on the short list.
So - what time it is?
Victor,I almost always hate dubbing. Once I notice a movie is dubbed it's all over as I become preoccupied with the fact the characters' mouths are movng out of synchronisiation with the dialogue. Often too, a dubbed voice doesn't correspond with the appearance of the character and the vocal expression doesn't match. The incongruities between the visual and audible are just too jarring.
"Red October": I've thought to start a thread here for awhile on submarine movies as I'm amazed how often they appear. This is a genre that I've noticed has been used consistently for decades and seems to be especially revealing of the period- from the gung ho WWII- "run Silent Run Deep" to the cat and mouse world of undersea warfare "Crimson Tide" to science fiction "20,000 Leagues", "Abyss", "Voyage to the Bottom of the Sea". "K-19" and U571"- the list goes on and on. "Das Boot" is a speically interesting movie as it spent more time humanizing the U-Boat experience than most movied that concentrate on war action.
There is something intense about the isolation of a submarine and of course the environment is dangerous like that of outer space. Also, like aircraft dogfighting the logistical side is 3 dimensional.
"Red October" had a good story idea and was on the verge of being actually a very good movie, but had to be made popular and palatable with name brand stars, but there was so much that was goofy and the casting was a main mistake. The main plot hole was of course, why the Connery character wrote in advance to the apparatchik uncle that he was defecting! No one, no one would have that stupid to give the Soviet Navy 4 or 5 days to catch him. The explanation that the letter would force full commitment is just not plausible as Connery could have piloted the boat to the US- as was their order anyway. Of course, then the story would have been without tension.
As for Connery doing Russian, I couldn't understand absolutely one word he said! The mixture of actors and accents on the Red October just made my head spin and was very distracting. Still, it was this close to being a really good one- pity.
The time: After fussing about for so long I decided the Lacroix was beautiful but a bit too "antique" looking- a bit too elaborate and textured. I have a problem with watches in that the ones that look wonderful in the case or photos as designs don't always look right on the wrist. I end up liking the more plain designs more. So, the nice chap at the corner drug store let me try for a day a very lightly used (1 year old) Vacheron power reserve and this turned out to be the perfect thing. I looked for a photo to make a link to, but I can't find one that has this exact dial which has all numbers instead of the hours and markers combination that seem to be the typical one. The closest I can come is:
http://www.prestigetime.com/item.php?item_id=2854
-the photo of which does not do this one justice.
This was much more expensive than I'd planned, but as I've thought to eventually sell my old Daytona, it's works out about even and the Vacheron just glows with quality- a lifetime purchase. The Lacroix is nicely made too, but the Vacheron- like the Lange 1- just jumped onto my wrist. As opposed to the super expensive Lange the VC was too attractive to pass up. By the way, the original owner of this one wore it very little- 4 or 5 times he said and it was kept on an automatic winder. [Do you use these? A sensible idea.] He brought it back to part exchange on the big chronograph that I lusted after from afar earlier but impossibly cost about the same as a new S class Mercedes.
But still even with a good "deal", for the next couple of years, I'm going to need to walk up to people in the street and ask for $2 to tell them the time! "Psst.. Hey buddy! Tell ya da time for two bucks. Hey, come on, what's da matter? Too important to know what time it is? OK.. Hey you!..."
Finally though, the torture of shopping is over!
Cheers,
Bam
I know that model, it is beautiful, so wear and enjoy! It is a bit too small for me, at 36mm, but it is a beauty!I am sure you know folks go crazy over Daytonas, but they leave me cold, but this Vacheron is indeed a keeper, and will most likely become a valuable piece you will pass onto next generation... in another hundred years.
Yes, I keep all my automatics on winders, I have four different winders, three of them with four-positions each. Otherwise the oil might pool on the bottom... so the pro's say.
Anyway, it is time for you to look again!
Best of luck!
Your comments on subtitles and dubbing generates a new thought: why are actors no longer taught speech and dialects? Or rather, why are they taught speech and dialects so poorly today? Twenty or twenty-five years ago, you could not get out of a major acting school without a good grounding in speech formation and projection, both for film and stage, and at least a smattering of dialect formation.Today, we are asked to accept actors in roles that our ears tell us are all wrong for them!
We used to laugh over line deliveries like "Yondah lies da castle uf muh faddah"! Kevin Costner's "Robin Hood" is just the most stunningly obvious example of this.
Gee LP,It's interesting that there was a period - really up through the 50-60s in which the use of Americans for other nationalities was taken as read and accents were either minimal or not attempted. Mostly Americans were being everything else- even Asian (Charlie Chan) or playing foreigners of all kinds. This changed eventually and, for example, Streep in "Sophie's Choice" caused a new demand for accurate, realistic performances.
But, even though the makers- and the public became more sophisticated became simultaneously so profit driven and immensely expensive that producers would not fund something without at least one name brand US box office star. This made the use of inapproriate actors go full circle ot the early carefree era. Profit pressure on movies forced the Big Names into all kinds of roles: Ryder in "Dracula", Witherspoon in "Importance of Being Ernest", Depp in "Pirates" the and etc. Your example of Costner as Robin Hood is among the best of the stomach turners. But, today the standard is somewhat higher and with extensive coaching Witherspoon and Depp did reasonable accents- though Depp's varied considerably from rural Somerset to way downtown of Sloane Street.
And, there's an even more confused situation at work. If the foreigner is famous enough- he becomes American and there are Hopkins (Silence), Micheal Gambon, Thomapson, Bohnam-Carter (Mighty Apgrodite) and Tim Roth in American parts.
We can laugh over the this return to silliness of not using "real" foreigners, as it it is sometimes strikingly odd, but I see this as a sad lowering of standards for actors. There are enough good actors of every nationality that the banality of forced accents just shouldn't have to be.
Cheers,
Bambi B
Actually there was a time when they shot twice the same film with actors of the country they come from...
On foreign actors... yes, many are easily and naturally absorbed. Prochnow is one such example, Arnold was another - both successful and actually good.You might also recall that in the early eighties there was a small wave of Russian actors who made a few roles - notables like Baryshnikov, of course, but also some less known ones, that brought some zest to several films - Moscow on Hudson, 2010, etc.
That wave is long gone, unfortunately, as some of them were good.
And there are others, like Valeria Golino, with her incredibly unforgettable voice among her incredibly forgettable performances.
Bambi B,I enjoyed your post very much! The part about foreign actors becoming so successful that we think of them as "American" reminds me of perhaps the most famous example: Cary Grant. In her essay "The Man from Dream City", Pauline Kael recalls the conversation between Grant and the producer of the film version of "My Fair Lady". Seems the producer wanted Grant to play Higgins and Grant laughed, saying, "My dear sir, I talk like Eliza did in the beginning of the play!"
Grant did also not want to take the part away from Sexy Rexy...
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