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In Reply to: Re: Good, now that helps. posted by Dave-A on February 21, 2005 at 18:21:53:
Why but why must it be mean, when one disagree?
Follow Ups:
came across that way. I guess I was matching the tone of the post a little too much. In fact, I would like to hear his views, not punch him in the face....:)Later
D
Glad!
His views are more than worth. Take a look at the search machine.Patrick
He is no more infallable than the rest of us. I respect Vic's opinions here, and yours [and others] as well, even though they don't always jive with my experience and likes/dislikes...something that is true of all critics. However, the better ones will explain why they like or dislike something.I don't care for the fact that Vic often resorts to such sweeping hyperbole in describing his reactions to a film....without any reasoned criticism, opinion fails to inform.
Later
D
Well, over the years here I wrote opinions on perhaps hundreds films. Some were quick one liners, others were quite long, most fell in between. You don't like the fact not all my posts are long and detailed? Well, why don't you start writing long detailed ones? This is just as much your forum as it is mine.So I will continue writing posts as long as I see it fit for the occasion. You have the right to read them, to ignore, to write your own.
There are million one-line posts here, BTW. A one-lines is a legitimate form of expression. And as I said - you don't like their proportion - fight by writing your own detailed posts.
But in all seriousness that lame film here doesn't deserve more than it already received.
You sell yourself short and deny us the experience of learning why you feel the way you do, when you come here and leave nothing but 'scorched earth'.
So, I don't really agree that one liners are entirely legitimate...especially when they express such strong feelings.I still would like you to explain the basis of your opinions, positive or negative. Of course, detailed posts tend to reveal more about the writer...we get to see you more clearly.
Later
D
Nobody is infallable. But the course of the years pared with an open mind and experience, may be just a little more than some.
I respect all opinions also. But some are more articulate and founded as others.
Some times you just get weary and exlplain not all, that is in my case often the case.
Bambi b and Victor write the best critics for me.
But is that so important?
Fine is the possibility to learn and to communicate.
And how often we made noises for nothing?
Respect and good manners, is much nicer, is it not?
Patrick
(1) Respect and good manners: Would anyone disagree? But respect not only has to do with avoiding name calling, derogatory comments, etc. I cannot, and would not, defend anyone calling Victor a name, making a personal attack, or using derogatory comments toward him because of an opinion he expressed, no matter how much I disagreed. And I would, as would I am sure you, ask those people to stop.But also feel that respect extends to other people's opinions. Respect for another's opinion requires, I think, more than simply saying, after someone has stated an opinion, provided with analysis that required work, effort, and time, that the film, and by implication the poster's opinions, was "caca." Someone has taken the time to express an opinion. I would think that they deserve more than "caca" in response. You agree? Which leads to the next point.
(2) I have no problem with people stating opinions. My issue is generally with people who express an opinion without any analysis. "Component A sounds good." What does that really tell you? How does it sound good? Why does it sound good? Is it perfect? Give me some analysis. Support the opinion with more than "It is so because I say it is so." That was the argument of the playground. We are adults, no?
"Directing was lame." That is a conclusion. Tell me why it was lame. The film was "vicious." That is a conclusion. Tell me why it was vicious. The purpose of the forum, I thought, was to advance dialog. Reciting conclusions does not advance the dialog. And frankly, Victor, or anyone else on this board, are too intelligent to simply recite conclusions. Granted, analysis requires more work and thought. Because we are stating opinions on films that other may have not seen, and may be interested in seeing, is it not fair to them to provide them more information so they could know whether to spend time and money to see the film. What do they learn by "It was caca?"
(3) State your biases up front. Some people have a predisposition against audio products made in Mid-East, or tubes, or solid state. If you are reviewing them, it is only fair to tell the reader of those biases. I would think the same applies here. I have no doubt that many are of the mindset that if it is made in Hollywood by a major studio, it must be bad. Or if it has special effects, it must be bad. Or if professional critics loved it, I know, I won't like it. That makes me smarter, because, well, smart people do not follow the herd. If those are your prejudices, fine. But say so.
I suspect those are the same people who cannot provide analysis to support their opinions. Because there is none. Can you make a one line statement to express an opinion? Sure. But so can any rube.
There seem to be fair number of people that are upset with Victor and his responses to their posts. I will not enter that fray. But Patrick, do you not find it odd that you generally agree with Victor, that you dislike most of the same films he does, and like most of the same films he does, and respond to generally the same posts he does, and yet no one has complained about how you express your opinions?
First thank you for sending such a...complete answer!
And yet a lot disagree... If you see some of the rude answers, you can only think than many are missing them ...The good manners and the respect.
Nothing against a little " heat-up " of course, but in all fairness.
Well with time you learn to know your friends, and, few words may be enough, of course here like in real life it is always a new begining, but some of us stick here long enough to know and appreciate ( ? ) each others....
We have a common knowledge and a same view of a kind of culture, which may call for a few missunderstanding for some, but anyone is entitle to ask for clarification!
So it is not a big fuzz, what Victor or someone else write ...Lame....or worst film of the year ( I did ). Like in a club, there is a kind of common language and thinking, in different faction of course!
Take the discussion of LOTR...You will see how childish but funny it can be sometimes...
Kaka is a kind of take a short way and a word Victor create and with time work well.
The first time, I discuss here with him ( Victor ) it was about " Solaris " he loved it and I wrote " Zzzzzzzzzz " having saw it the first time at the festival of Cannes and then after the projection, the interview with the director Mr.Tarkovsky, which was at the time, even more boring, so we start our film " relation " in this way, but in the mean time I learnt through him so many beautiful " boring " Russian films that it enriched my life...
So that is the meaning, exchanging and learning from each other.
" State your biases up front " Well we try not to have any! And if I say and think that, as an example, Hollywood in an industry with mostly as only goal " money " it is I feel just the truth, industry food can be at best acceptable.
But Hollywood was always an industry, but with some of the moguls back then it was a kind of different, as they also had some artistic pretentions, who I sorely miss today.
Smart people says what the think and as freely they an be. That it why I call them " smart "He-he...
Victor, believe me, has something to say! Make please a research...If you find then that it is not so, so count me in the same category.
And there you are wrong, if you knew how a many did attack me the same way they did with Victor!
The only difference is that I try to a certain point, to have more patience, I have a temperament that is more soft, maybe, and I know that it is mostly a waste of time, because time learnt that. Without any arrogance I hasten to add. If I would be more " practical " I would act like he does.
Trust me, he is one of the finest guy around.
You just have to learnt to know him.
I realize these things about both you and Vic. Many times I respect your opinions, but occasionally I need more than simple one liners...especially 'pure offensive caca'. Although, some films are not worth more...:)I expect the intelligent to be able to respond with a little more than that, when it is required/requested. Even in his post, Vic said he would 'discuss later'...well, is it now? By posting here, with such authority, one assumes the position of critic, even if only on an informal/amateur basis.
I like to know what social/cultural/political beliefs color a critic's opinions. This helps me know what to expect from them and about the films they comment on. No, Victor is not Peter Travers, but he has seen many more films than most here, including me, and his opinions matter...but only if he cares to respect the others here, and support his opinions with his reasoned ideas, not just quick, empty one liners...if not for your benefit, then ours.
Respect, like love, can only be had in the same measure as one gives.
Later
D
You see sometimes there are imperatives like private one or buisness like or some times both together.
Gentlemen just donīt ask. They feel.
Well we are the result of so different sensibilities, and of course we are all " coloured " if we would not we would not be human.
The point is the own knowledge of himself and the trying to be as correct with one self and the others, in one word to be honest.
We all are suffering, of " my point is right " " your is not ", but more or less.
Victor respect every one, as long as they shown some willing to discuss honestly. But he will not when attack unfairly he will then give a harsh answer and he is fully entitled to do so.
They looked for it & they got it.
If you want to discuss a given matter he will never not answer you in the most serious way.
Never.
I couldn't agree more nor state it better.Later
D
nt
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