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In Reply to: Re: The K-car of movies posted by Victor Khomenko on July 25, 2000 at 12:50:40:
"Needless to say, I DO believe in certain absolutes, that Chardin is great and Warchol trash,"
A belief is subjective and excludes an absolute.
I, too, enjoyed American Beauty, hated Warhol's 8 hour trip on the Empire State but bow to it's provoking effect. Art need not be 'enjoyable'.
Let's see.***"Needless to say, I DO believe in certain absolutes, that Chardin is great and Warchol trash,"
***A belief is subjective and excludes an absolute.Do you KNOW or do you BELIEVE that a falling body will accelerate at 9.8m/ses*sec? If you have not measured it yourself, it this actually not a *belief*?
You are talking about purely a philosophical notion here, and I do not see any problem in my statement.
***I, too, enjoyed American Beauty,Why specifically?
***hated Warhol's 8 hour trip on the Empire State but bow to it's provoking effect.
"Provoking effect" has nothing to do with art. One can provoke with mere trivial facts.
***Art need not be 'enjoyable'.
I think you are simpy using this word differently than I am.
I don't have time now for a "What is art?" discussion. Love the subject, though.
If Warhol as trash was an absolute, then everybody would think it's trash. It's not the case.
I'd have to verify the sources before I believed or knew about the 9.8m/se*sec. Anyway, one less ignorance, maybe ;0)
I enjoyed American Beauty mainly because, as an outsider to the US, I found it refreshingly, self critical for a US film. But I probably got it all wrong.
Sorry, but I think 'provoking effect' has everything to do with art (AND trivial facts, you're right).
Art...enjoyable...yes, maybe I'm usingit differently.
Last point? That's good 'cos I hate 'What is Art? discussions.
You probably got it right. There are subtleties there, but the nihilism or decadence or whatever you care to call it, is right upfront.The story: man loses job. Man changes his way of living. Man's new lifestyle really disturbs people. Man is murdered.
Some things that are alluded to: The American Dream, mistaken first impressions-or the truth behind the mask, alienation, does the job or economic status define the person? You could make a list.
For all that, if it did not have a powerful emotional effect, it wouldn't be worth much.
I agree with you about art being provocative. It must be at least that.
***The story: man loses job. Man changes his way of living. Man's new lifestyle really disturbs people. Man is murdered.So? This is soooooo boring......... nothing but a local paper story.....
***Some things that are alluded to: The American Dream, mistaken first impressions-or the truth behind the mask, alienation, does the job or economic status define the person? You could make a list.????? trivial.... tedious..... boring..... who cares? Insignificant yeaterday's news.
***For all that, if it did not have a powerful emotional effect, it wouldn't be worth much.That story has "powerful emotional effect"? OK. I don't find it there. It is a rather banal, boring story, a tedious regurgitation of the x-gen created mid-life crisis bullshit that only exists in semi-idle minds of few well-off dumbsters who have no moral foundation. Boring beyond comprehansion.
Like your typical poor rich girl story, torn apart by the horrible realities of having to choose the coctail dress in the next three hours.
Story, story, story, subject again. For the n-th time, story and art are separate. If you like the movie because of its story, that is swell with me (this boring story nothwithstanding), but it doesn't make that "movie" a work of art. Any newspapaper story has, well, story, some are even well written, most not art at all, just skill.As I stated before - to me the movie is usually not about the story, although it certainly can and does play its role quite often. It is about how it is all done. What is so hard about this? In art subject is not only completely insignificant, true art raises any insignificant subject to great hight without you even realizing it. What is so significant about the Corot's tree leaves? Only the fact that it was painted by Corot and how it was painted.
While true art doesn't need any sugnificant story to use as a prop, for it perfectly can stand on its own, a mediocre or sub-art collapses without a story in one picosecond - and that is one powerful diference.
***I agree with you about art being provocative. It must be at least that.
You may agree with that, but this is not what was stated (look again). While it is debatable whether the art MUST be provocative (largely depending upon your definition of that word, to be sure - I don't think it need to be: I do not find Corot's tree "provocative" in any sense of that word. I presume that "provocative" expectation is largely a product of the 1960's mentality and some "revolutionary" art for masses desire), the statement was that many other things ARE provocative without being art.
You call them boring and trivial.Some of us here in America can relate to what Lester was going through. Here was a man who lived by and for the establishment and was dumped. He came to realize what an empty and cliched life he had been living, what a mass of pottage he had sold his soul for, and decided to try to change things.
For those who cannot relate to this, I suppose the movie is worthless and meaningless trash.
***If Warhol as trash was an absolute, then everybody would think it's trash. It's not the case.Ah, but the mere existence of some absulute scale doesn't mean we can always place things on it easily or reliably. Things don't come with tags attached. For instance, if it was a popular vote, I am not sure whe Warhol would end up (probably VERY low, I don't see anyone except the 5th Ave "elite" (elite, right!) falling for that self-centered jerk). But having seen what they would buy I am not surprised of much anymore. What if the vote was limited to those with formal art education? Intellectual elite? Junkies?
***I'd have to verify the sources before I believed or knew about the 9.8m/se*sec. Anyway, one less ignorance, maybe ;0)
I enjoyed American Beauty mainly because, as an outsider to the US, I found it refreshingly, self critical for a US film. But I probably got it all wrong.OK, that is the story again. Subject, in other words, not means. As I mentioned before, I often don't even notice the subject. What was the subject of Chardin's paintings? Ah, the servant girl... Dutch? Servant girls (many of them) washing the endless tiled floors. Few trees... those funny tiny figures on the frozen lakes. A flower.
***Sorry, but I think 'provoking effect' has everything to do with art (AND trivial facts, you're right).
Art...enjoyable...yes, maybe I'm usingit differently.
Last point? That's good 'cos I hate 'What is Art? discussions.No time for it now, anyway, as much as I would love it. Difficult discussion usually, up there with "Who was worse - Stalin or Hitler?"
Have a nice day.
"What if the vote was limited to those with formal art education? Intellectual elite? Junkies?"
Hmm..I guess that if it's limited, you couldn't after connect it to an absolute value. No?
"OK, that is the story again. Subject, in other words, not means"
Hey! What's wrong with a good story? - that's how Shakespeare made his name and I would say that the first artist was a story-teller before he found out he could paint on cave walls!
Before the technique, before the aesthetic, even an abstract painting has to 'tell a good story', otherwise it means nothing. The rest is intellectual analysis.
"No time for it now, anyway, as much as I would love it. Difficult discussion usually, up there with "Who was worse - Stalin or Hitler?"
Completely agree - you, too, have a good day and...thanks!
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