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In Reply to: Give me a break, Goethe. posted by jusbe on June 1, 2005 at 16:59:28:
Jusbe,
Quote:[ "If this film was released under any other title other than Star Wars, people would be lambasting within an inch of its miserable life."I thought people were doing this anyway?]
Actually, no. What I'm hearing most often is, " Wow, it's better than the first two! (Therefore) It's great!" Only the thinnest skinned SW fan would think it is being 'lambasted'. Besides, what kind of defense is, " It's not as bad as the first two!"
Quote:["I hope everyone who liked this film will recall the latitude they give George for his amateurish writing, and be equally magnanimous to
other films equally handicapped."No reason not to expect that. But then few of us who have the forebearance to embrace a pop culture that includes Star Wars spend much
time potificating on what's "crap" and what's not.]Sorry, but you must have mistaken me for some of the other inmates, most notably those with initials starting with 'V' and ending with 'K', and his soul mate in France (or is that Germany? German in France, or Frenchie in Germany, I cannot remember). I actually happen to like a lot of pretty bad 'B' movies and other pop culture props. But even those bits of fluff have standards. What's more, (many of)the people liking SW are calling it 'great filmmaking', and not going through the usual PoMo exercises at rehabilitation via relabelling things as 'kitsch' or 'camp'. Listen, even by 'objective' standards (and by this I do not mean some lofty pronouncement from on high, but just pretty basic stuff that anyone who enjoys movies..and I didn't call it 'film'...can agree on), the new SW films are embarrassingly bad.
I mean c'mon....by common acceptance, dialogue is 'bad', acting is 'wooden', storytelling is 'clumsy', plot is 'simple'(and I'm being generous here). I'm sorry, but what the hell else is left in a film? The score? SFX? Vision? What vision? For the first one, m-a-y-b-e..but oops, Corndog's already called it a Joseph Campbell rip ( how about some poetry about that, Corndog?)! All the newer films are not so much Lucas's 'vision', as it is those of the people he paid to do his designs, costumes and the like. Okay, so some will say, "Yeah, but he had to pick up the grease pencil to 'OK' them..what, that's not an active imagination at work?!? " Look, even if we give it that, one must surely wonder..billions of dollars and _that's_ the best he could come up with??? Watch practically any modern mecha anime and you'll see 'better' ( and by this I mean well thought out etc etc) designs.
Quote:[My earlier comments were a barely disguised call for balance. Its easy to rip SW to
shreds - what's interesting about that? I'd like to hear your take on its enduring appeal. On second thoughts, maybe not.]Don't get a contusion raising your lightsabre too quickly.
Quote: [I don't go to a burger bar and expect Michelin Star fare. Do you?]
No, but at the very least, I expect a good, well-made burger.
Quote:[And, as many will attest, sometimes only a burger will do, unless you're herbivorous. Describing anything as "crap" reveals you as a
poor critic. Star Wars is a genre all to itself, aside from any canon of sci-fi one could enumerate and certainly outside the confines of good
cinematic taste (bonkers plot, a glut of CGI, poor direction). Its still often highly enjoyable, if you're able to leave your Crit. Lit. hat at the
box office.]Yes, your 'Crit. Lit. hat' surely, but the rest of your brain too?? 'Crap' is only useful in forums like these when one doesn't have the time to really fully explain a response. Anonymity and lack of ability to gauge tone of voice etc is a hinderance in this case. If we were friends ( and in close geographic proximity), we could sit down and actually unpack individual experiences and understand why we have arrived at very different conclusions about this piece of shi--oops, there I go again!
People like it because they like it. that's fine, Just don't bother with the extra exercise of rationalizing that like in the hope of creating some hasty bulwark against whatever bit of cognitive dissonance that may arise from genuinely liking crap.
Follow Ups:
That's actually a half-decent reply. I'd still have to disagree, so I guess that'd amount to a reasonable drinking session to boot.Too old to be bothered about whether anyone else considers my predilections crap or not but I guess I'm curious about the furore instigated by the production of these prequels. We *know* that Lucas left it too long to make them; that the intervening gap left by the absensce of a fleshed-out 'back-story' after the original trilogy was quickly and comprehensively colonised by the collective SF imagination. So why are we surprised then that whatever was produced was going to be a monumental disappointment?
And since we're on the subject of effluvia, does anyone else agree that the score for episode 3 was porcelain pebble-dash by comparison with SW1 and 2 (let alone the original series)? Now you can pass me the loo roll!
I think you secretly like it all. Just a little.
Big J.
Big J,> > That's actually a half-decent reply. I'd still have to disagree, so I guess that'd amount to a reasonable drinking session to boot. < <
Anything that ends in a drinking session is fine by me!
> > Too old to be bothered about whether anyone else considers my predilections crap or not but I guess I'm curious about the furore instigated by the production of these prequels. We *know* that Lucas left it too long to make them; that the intervening gap left by the absensce of a fleshed-out 'back-story' after the original trilogy was quickly and comprehensively colonised by the collective SF imagination. So why are we surprised then that whatever was produced was going to be a monumental disappointment? < <
Not so much surprised as disappointed. I go into every film looking/hoping to like/love it. That's probably what drives whatever impulse I have to search out obscurities and the like anyway. The case against is pretty basic, really--the fact that he had so many years to plan, prep, think and rethink the options he had, that, with all the resources he had at his disposal..literally the best talent money can buy, and I'm talking in pretty much any and every department...this is all he could come up with? What with the converted already willing to forgive almost any transgression, so long as they got more lightsabre battles (largely poorly staged and shot, I might add). And I'm not even talking a disagreement with a writer/director's treatment or direction...those sorts of disgareements can make for very interesting discussions where the various parties may hold genuinely different but nonetheless valid positions. But just pretty basic level of competence is pretty much missing. And I'm talking when even compared to the two earlier films.
> > And since we're on the subject of effluvia, does anyone else agree that the score for episode 3 was porcelain pebble-dash by compariso with SW1 and 2 (let alone the original series)? Now you can pass me the loo roll! < <
Ha ha..at least we can agree on something!
> > I think you secretly like it all. Just a little. < <
Whoaaa..low blow, low blow!
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