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Havent' seen this movie, and won't. Hollywood still seems to think that all Asians are simply interchangable--you mean to tell me they couldn't find Japanese actresses to play the main roles?????
Follow Ups:
If you had a movie depicting blacks, there would be an uproar if white actors were chosen for those roles. Yet, few seem to care of you have chinese actors playing japanese roles. All asians are not interchangeable--and hollywood has never figured this out.
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"American" is not an ethnic designation--by definition, ANYONE can be American as it denotes a nationality. One can typically only be Japanese if one is born Japanese, or Chinese if one is born Chinese (very few people naturalize, I believe, into these countries, as opposed to America).I go back to my original point: many people might get upset if Tom Cruise (or Mel Gibson) played Martin Luther King in a movie.....
Would you get upset if a Swede played an Italian? They are every bit as different biologically as Japanese and Chinese. I think the real problem here is the deep hatred that still exists amoung some Japanese and Chinese for one another. Personally I think that is their problem and i would prefer that artists be allowed to be artists and make choices based on art rather than the politics of hatred. Actors act. They pretend tobe somebody they are not. Where do you draw the line and why?
..has little to do with what the Chinese think about the Japanese, or vice versa; it has everything to do with Hollywood having a long, ignorant history with regards to Asians.
Funny that one would speak of Hollywood as a single entity while complaining about the grouping of Asians. That aside let me relate to you a story of an Asian actor I worked with for seven years. He was of the opinion that Asians as a group have been under represented and often poorly represented in the film and television industry. We had a disagreement over Joel Grey playing an old Asian character in Remo Williams. He felt that it should have been played by an Asian actor. I disagreed on the basis of art for art's sake. The illusion was worth the cost of employment of an Asian actor IMO. I'm not big on the idea of birth rights. So this actor, Garret Wang agrees with the common belief that actors should not be crossing broad racial lines just as you alluded in your example that a white person playing Martin Luther King Jr. would be considered by many to be offensive. OTOH That same actor who is Cantonese, played a Korean on the show we worked on together. Clearly he, an Asian actor, did not see a problem with actors crossing cultural lines. There are more than a few that see your analogy as flawed. A Japanese character played by a Chinese actor is not nearly as universally offensive as actors crossing racial lines in their portrayals. I am of one extreme. I believe in the magic of movies and the fun of creating illusions. I have put a white actor into black makeup on national television. I sleep fine at night. By the way the Black man that was being spoofed by the white actor I put into black makeup thought it was both an amazing illusion and a very funny sketch. I am very sensitive to the plight of minorities and the discrimination they face but as an artist who works in the film an television industry I am not sympathetic to politics of any kind dictating what artists can and cannot do.
There are certainly no absolutes, as your example points out. There may indeed be instances where one can switch out races without too much problem. BUT, in this instance, I am familiar with these chinese actresses and their native languages, and it is very odd indeed to see them speaking english with a chinese accent when they are portraying something as quintessentialy japanese, and feminine, as Geisha--whose mannerisms and speaking style is unique, and very japanese. As I said before, most Americans could probably care less.
Ah, now you raise some interesting points. I have not seen the movie and I will take you at your word in regards to your opinion. I wouldn't be able to judge well even if I had seen the movie. In short, by your accounts the acting is inadequate and therefore fails artistically. That does make the choice you object to look bad/objectionable on many levels. so do we set special rules for bad artists? It is tempting but...who gets to be judge? In the end, the critics and the buying public will judge. maybe it will fail in Japan and China as you predict but for artistically legitimate reasons rather than unfortunate prejudicial reasons.
I don't blame the artists, however--I am actually a fan, just not in this case.....I blame the casting director, and the producers for seemingly thinking "it doesn't matter".
From talking to some Asian people, it is my understanding that while it is sometimes possible to tell the Japanese from the Chinese, that is not always the case, and there is great overlap. Kind of like telling a Russian from Polish.That's what they told me, anyway. Did someone say the actress doesn't look like she could be a Japanese? Honestly curious.
I would say that different "ethnic groups" are interchangeable if and only iff one knows nothing about them. The more one knows, the less likely one is to confuse the two, on looks, mannerisms, etc. For many Americans, all Asians are alike--there was once even a TV soap opera that had "Asians" that spoke "Asian"--even though there is no such thing.Zhang Ziyi, though absolutely beautiful, is not Japanese; this might work except that the film is about Geishas, something that is fundamentally Japanese in essence.
...that the Geisha is a uniquely Japanese cultural development and that in this case more than others I believe it important to have found a Japanese actress to embody the role.My problem with this comes from having some sense of the richness of the Japanese theatrical and cinematic traditions. Some of the world's great work in both media (acknowledging the great variety of forms and styles) comes from Japan. It's just so hard to believe suitable Japanese actors could not be found. Marshall claims that these were the "best" people for the roles according to some craft-related measurement, but I remain quite sceptical.
Also, when I watched the trailer I thought it was overdone in ways that appear confirmed by the numerous negative reviews I've found.
eb
You seem to be speaking in nothing but generalities. I asked you a specific question - is the actress clearly non-Japenese to the Asian viewers? You did not provide an answer.I strongly disagree with your first sentence. I am quite familiar with one such group, and as I said, there is plenty of overlap. Even such distinct groups as Jews, for example, can be confused for others.
So let me ask you again - I understand she is not Japanese... is she OBVIOUSLY non-Japanese to an Asian viewer?
I, of course, don't know if you are or aren't an Asian person... so I am asking a question, not making a statement.
I do agree there are silly stereotypes - like those Russians, with their fur hats that apparently grow attached to their heads.
I would say, Yes, she is obviously not japanese to the asian viewer. Crouching Tiger was not a success in mainland china (it was laughed at, in fact) because it had Taiwanese actors attempting to play what were essentially mainland characters...
I meant "Hong Kong" actors, not Taiwanese...
But I strongly disagree with that notion... when Omar Sharif played Dr. Zhivago the failure (or lack thereof) of the film had NOTHING to do with the fact the actor was obviously not a Russian type.
...and it is clear that these are Chinese actors speaking English; pronunciation, intonation, mannerisms.....none of it Japanese.....most american audiences won't notice this, but it is rather disconcerting if you know Japan and Japanese...they are just out of place in this context.
You can say opera is more symbolic than movies, but in reality this is not so - all performing art has this, and we expect the actor's talent to shine through the layer of superficial details.I intentionally mentioned the Rose. In the case of Geisha you are familiar with the details, and you are stuck on them. We all are far less aware of the subtleties of the 14th century life, so pretty much everything goes - including actor's impecably groomed beard.
Much has been written on whether a black actor could convincingly play Hamlet. I don't see why not.
...in what we are willing to accept. And, you're right--familiarity has a lot to do with it. A black actor playing Hamlet woudn't bother me, but part of that might be that Hamlet tends to transcend the time for which it was written. It doesn't really matter that Hamlet was a Dane in the grand scheme of things.Americans are notriously naive about other cultures and ethnic groups, and "Memoirs of a Geisha" is just another in a long line of examples regarding Asia.
I would venture to guess that this movie will not do well in Japan (because of the Chinese actresses--not their fault, mind you), nor will it do well in China--the problems between these two countries run deep and to this day. It's only real chance is in the US....
But that may be based in the dislikes the two peoples still to large degree have towards each other more than the actress' nationality.Shame... really...
No they couldn't find any Japanese actresses anyone ever heard of.
Music is Emotion
...I think a list of the names of great films from Japan would be a lot longer than the list of great films from China. This has much to do with the state-run arts industry that prevailed for many years under "communism," and under which a true, unencumbered cinematic tradition could hardly grow in an organic fashion. So if nothing else, I believe the Japanese film tradition is both wider and deeper than the Chinese.Someone with more detailed knowledge of the history of Chinese film might confirm or deny this contention, which I believe to be the case.
It's hard to believe that for this film its fortunes as a commercial enterprise were much based by the producers on the presence of these actresses. It's true they're better known here than Japanese actresses because an important group of pretty contemporary Chinese films have featured them. But one can't say they have box office clout here. The situation is such that the best way to sell this movie to an American audience is through great reviews, something this film has not garnered.
eb
Japanese-American actress...
Yum
**
Music is Emotion
With ten pounds of makeup the geisha wear it is really not important what's underneath. Could even be me. Or you.
I watched bits of The Name of the Rose last night... imagine that - all actors were from the 20th century!
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