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In Reply to: Try John Woo's "The Killer" or "Hardboiled", they make "Ronin" look like an episode of "F Troop" (nt) posted by Rob Doorack on November 06, 2000 at 10:51:24:
They are among the most naive outgrowth of the 007 movies. Their level of believability is as close to zero as it gets. They really are parodies, not movies.Ronin, by comparisson, is surely removed from reality, but not in a childish way, so one can still connect to it and feel like they are watching something moderately real.
Watching someone hit by fifty bullets still alive, fly through the air shooting non-stop from two Beretta's hitting five adversaries with every bullet is not my idea of an action movie. It is your typical super-hero stuff, Batman revisited.
Plus Ronin set new standard for car chases - these are simply without equal.
Follow Ups:
*** Hardboiled and The Killer are among the most naive outgrowth of the 007 movies***????????
How in the world did you arrive at that conclusion?
Films like Our Man Flint, The Liquidator, and The Silencers are first-generation spin-offs of the Bond movies. Flicks like The Ipcris File show perhaps two degrees of separation; the Frank Sinatra "Tony Rome" detective series a third degree of separation; and television series such as The Man from U.N.C.L.E. a fourth degree of separation. If you can show a link between Hard Boiled, which is a Hong Kong/Hollywood crossover cop/buddy flick with kung fu roots to the Bond movies I would love to see it!
As far as your assertion that Ronin is superior to Hard Boiled... I won't argue with you although I totally disagree with you. One cannot argue with preferences.
Still, I guess that's why you collect swords and I collect rare and first edition books.
Any action movie requires a certain level of suspension - of - disbelief. That's true with Woo's films and with "Ronin". I haven't seen "Ronin" since its theatrical relase but my memory is that the plot had holes in it that you could drive a truck through. I think you've looked at these movies on the most superficial level - "that gun can't shoot that many rounds" - and failed to see the breathtaking filmmaking in them. In "Hardboiled" there's a long sequence where the two leads get on an elevator, have a conversation while loading their guns, get off at the next floor, then fight their way down a couple of halls and around a corner or two. Why is that so remarkable? Because its one continous take perhaps 90 seconds long. The scene includes a couple of dozen stunts and maybe a hundred pyro effects, all of it happening in real time. Its a stunningly audacious demonstration of Woo's skill. I can think of few scenes in film history to compare it to, maybe some of Keaton's stunts.
Well, Rob, on one hand I am willing to say that this is all just a matter of a degree, but on the other hand there is still too much of a Marxsist left in me to know that at certain point quantity does transform into a different quality. To put it simply, it is not that the Hardboiled is simply a bit more removed from reality than Ronin - id DOES have a completely different substance.An action movie doesn't have to look like a comic book silliness to be interesting and riveting. One can put emphasis on stunts, or one can concentrate on the more subtle means and elements. These subtle elements can be captivating without looking childish. Like many other things in life, the perfection is in the balance, and when subjected to this test, the Hardboiled fails. In my view, of course. It makes me feel like coming to the fine Japanese restaurant and eating nothing but the soy souse. That is not my idea of fine dining.
Like with the soy souse, there is nothing wrong with kicks, punches, shots, chases. It is just that I expect more for my money. I also expect sushi.
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