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In Reply to: Well, now you have another opportunity.nt posted by jamesgarvin on March 31, 2006 at 08:18:41:
Of course, such matters are purely subjective and there can be no stats showing one critic is as good or better than another. I don't think either of us is likely to change his mind, our tastes are just too different. Which is perfectly fine.
Follow Ups:
Learn to read. The issue wasn't who was better but how similar their views were. That can be shown with stats. Duh.
There are no stats to show otherwise.
http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.mpl?forum=films&n=43188&highlight=Sarris+and+Rosenbaum+Ebert&r=&session=
Or maybe it is your math that is your problem. Either way you are wrong.
He's even more of an intellectually dishonest asshole than I'd thought. Pointing out a handful of films that Ebert and Rosenbaum both like proves nothing. It would be more amazing if they didn't occasionally like the same thing. For every one film they agree on, one could cite many more where they don't.
Let's look at some of these gems:Syriana - did not review. Probably not enough people in the audience for him to arrive at his own conclusions
That's cute, implying that the most independent-minded of all film critics forms his conclusions off of audience responses. What a weak insult that alone shows James has no credibility or decency, and is not serious about making a reasoned argument.
Robin Wood, James Quandt - Which obscure publication do they write for?Interpretation: "I've never heard of them, therefore they can't be any good." Not having heard of these two greats shows James's towering ignorance. They've both written many superb books and Wood publishes the first-rate magazine Cinema Scope. Check it out.
Toni Raynes - I can find fourteen reviews she has authored. She is one of your favorites? How long does it take you to read fourteen reviews? And finally, must a professional film critic actually watch films and then commit finger to keyboard to actually be a critic?Oh, here James thinks he's being cute by changing Tony's y to an i and calling him a girl. Real classy. Why does James assume that because he can only find fourteen reviews that there aren't any more? Tony is a highly esteemed film scholar, who's written many books and done DVD commentaries, and most of his writing just isn't on the web for James to conveniently google. Too bad.
Donald Ritchie - Mr. Obvious says that this must be you, because you like to read your own verbiage. Clue - writing perfunctory one-liners does not make you a film critic.This one takes the cake. Ritchie has written exhaustive, universally praised film studies like A Hundred Years of Japanese Film: A Concise History , The Films of Akira Kurosawa , Ozu , among many others, and James has the audacity to claim Ritchie writes one-liners.
Scott, your posting the link to this ill-informed trash reveals a lot about you. Do you really think James makes a strong case? He comes across as even more of snot-nosed philistine, wallowing in his ignorance and hurling childish insults against people whose work he doesn't have the slightest clue about. The man clearly knows nothing about about film or film criticism and I fear debating such a person is a waste of time. Feel free to align yourself with this hopeless middlebrow if you must.
Now that I am back in town, I'll respond. As Scott states, you have difficulty reading. This thread was about Rosenbaum and Sarris. The numbers I posted were about Rosenbaum and Sarris. Digressing, my comments about the obscurity of the other critics you referenced was not meant to be disparaging toward them. Rather, how can anyone assess their credibility and/or abilities if the critics writings are not widely disseminated? I inadvertantly changed a "y" to an "i". It was an accident. I feel sorry for you that your life is such that you constantly focus on the negative. You need to relieve some aggression.Now, to Rosenbaum and Sarris. You alleged that Ebert was low-brown, etc., in his film recommendations. Predictably, you did not cite any specific evidence to support your argument. Because, Donald, you never do. You confuse use of big words with intelligence. Intelligence comes from being able to analyze. It is what separates us from animals.
So I chose to analyze for you. I demonstrated that Sarris and Rosenbaum agreed with the "mass market" almost as much as Ebert, and that they agreed more often than not. I even pointed out that Rosenbaum sang the virtues of "The Bad News Bears." High-brown entertainment, that is. Which leads to the conclusion (there I go thinking again) that you either do not read Rosenbaum and Sarris, or you do not like Ebert for reasons that having nothing to do with films, or you read Rosenbaum and Sarris but do not comprehend or remember their reviews.
And guess what? You have now had a second opportunity to provide evidence to support your arguments, and, for a second time, failed to do so. The statistics bear out, once again, that Rosenbaum and Sarris are as mass market as Ebert. To this, Donald, you have yet to reply. And before you begin the next time to submit a critics resume', you should read Ebert's resume. Significantly more impressive.
The fact is Rosenbaum, Sarris, et al. write considerably more intelligently and with more insight than the average critic, Ebert included. One need only to actually read their reviews to see that. Citing stats observed on freakin' Rotten Tomatoes demonstrates nothing of significance.You've spent an inordinate amount of time looking at the things that don't matter. The actual reviews and ideas of the people we're discussing do. Now, there's nothing wrong in liking a middlebrow like Ebert. More power to you. Just don't get so bent out of shape that his middling efforts don't suit everyone else.
Well, we seem to have made progress. You now admit (after seeing some numbers) that it is not Ebert's opinions of films that you disagree with, it is the way he writes. The purpose of writing is to communicate ideas, not to try to appeal to your intelligentsia friends. But we have made progress.Specifically: "it would be more amazing if they didn't occasionally like the same thing. For every one film they agree on, one could cite many more where they don't."
Well, wrong again. First, as the numbers show, they agree far more than they disagree. Even when confronted with the numbers, you still make incorrect statements. One could cite many where they don't agree? Care to be specific? But then, why start now? Pontificating is easy, proving allegations is work. Why work when you can be a blowhard?
Although, have now made progress: Donald : "He's not getting soft, he's always been a philistine and a champion of mediocrity."
When confronted with the facts, you have now modified your tune. How about we play a game of logic, a class that many people who have college degrees were required to take: If Ebert champions mediocrity, and if Sarris and Rosenbaum generally champion the same films as Ebert, then Rosenbaum and Sarris also champion mediocrity. See. That was easy. Which explains why you still have yet to demonstrate why Ebert champions mediocrity. Because you cannot.
Donald writes: "Giving a thumbs-up to a genuinely deserving film once in a blue moon scores him few bonus points. He's a hopeless middle-brow, respected only by others with similarly undemanding sensibilities and questionable critical faculties."
Questionable critical faculties? Does this also apply to the same films Rosenbaum and Sarris review in which they agree? Or are the approximate 70% of the time they agree inconsequential in comparison to the 30% they do not agree?
"The fact is Rosenbaum, Sarris, et al. write considerably more intelligently and with more insight than the average critic,"
Odd you would use "fact" in a sentence, in that you would not know a "fact" if it jumped up and bit you on the petard. I know I am setting myself up for disappointment (not really, but it is more dramatic), how about providing some facts which support your argument (chuckles as he types, muttering "yea, right" under his breath)?
"You've spent an inordinate amount of time looking at the things that don't matter."
Well, it mattered enough for you to comment twice in your posts that Ebert champions mediocrity, then when I point out that Rosenbaum and Sarris generally champion the same mediocrity, you then claim that these things do not matter. We call that backtracking where I come from. I have spent time on this little topic. When I make an allegation, and cloak it as a fact, I generally feel I should provide evidence to support my statements. It is work. You should learn the meaning of the word.
You can't look at a few reviews by both of them and conclude they have the same opinion. How many of Rosenbaum's reviews have you actually read? I've read hundreds, perhaps thousands by both of them, and it's overwhelmingly evident that they have very different tastes and attitudes. Which, again, is fine.Reading the reviews tells the story, not stats for randomly sampled reviews on Rotten Tomatoes. Rosenbaum's reviews give me pleasure and offer insights into the medium, whereas Ebert's reviews do not. It's as simple as that.
"You can't look at a few reviews by both of them and conclude they have the same opinion."Opinions and conclusions are two different animals. Their opinions may be different, but their conclusions, which are either to recommend the film or not, are, approximately 70% of the time, the same. Consequently, all three generally recommend the same films, most of the time. So I do not understand how Ebert recommends "mediocrity", and Rosenbaum and Sarris do not, when the latter two critics generally recommend the same films as Ebert.
I do not read Rosenbaum or Sarris with regularity, though I do read them on occasion. I have found that their conclusions generally agree with Ebert's.
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