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In Reply to: Conveniently left out that these Israeli assassins posted by tinear on May 6, 2006 at 14:29:18:
(from globalsecurity.com):
"And Mossad's record has also been blemished by a few embarrasing failures. In Lillehammer, Norway, on 07 January 1974, Mossad agents mistakenly killed Ahmad Boushiki, an Algerian waiter carrying a Moroccan passport, whom they mistook for PLO security head Ali Ahmad Salameh, believed to have masterminded the 1972 massacre of Israeli athletes at the Munich Olympics [Salameh was killed in a 1979 car-bomb explosion in Lebanon]. Following the attack, the Mossad agents were arrested and tried before a Norwegian court. Five Israeli agents were convicted and served short jail sentences, though Israel denied responsibility for the murder. In February 1996, the Israeli government agreed to compensate the family of Ahmad Boushiki."
Follow Ups:
This film is not a Spielberg propaganda picture or a Jewish propaganda picture. Like Schindler's List it is a highly even handed film -- the only reason for nitpicking is that Spielberg happens to be Jewish -- the point of Munich (in which no answers are supplied by Spielberg because if he had the answers the conflict would be over) was to ilustrate that tit for tat warfare is not the solution.The mistake most in societies around the world are making is to "side with or against" Palastine or Israel. People keep yammering on about 50 year old contracts, this is our land that;s your land blah blah my God says we're the chosen ones and your God tells you you are the chosen ones -- America is happy to sit back and fund both sides because it is far more profitable to do so. Can't sell guns and the industry of war to people who "get along."
Isreal is a few million people surround by over 300 million people who want nothing more to stick every Israeli in a gas chamber. So I'm not surprised that they have an iron grip around their neighbor's neck -- every time they relax for a moment someone kills em. Palestine of course has no way to fight back so they make war the only way possible. Munich is the human story about why they are not going to get anywhere -- the staircase conversation is precisely two men who out of this situation would probably be good friends had they met at a local pub. But the history is too much for them their actions are programmed from birth ( I am Palestinian and therefore I must hate all Jews and probably vice versa) not unlike the Nazi Youth who were programmed for more than a decade to hate Jews. Intolerance and fear breads more and more of the same.
The issue you bring up with Mossad is not surprising -- The business of killing is bound to have people make mistakes -- The Palestinians blew up a bus load of kids "oops" they said "that was not the target." Fat lot of good that does. The Palestian people just freely elected a government that's main goal in life is to slaughter every Israeli and Jew from the face of the planet. If I'm an Israeli I'm wondering if common gound is in sight. And the bottom line to life is "if it's between you and me and my family I choose me."
around to help me out.
Palestinians and Arabs should just let bygones be bygones. Keep living in those camps. Smile! Better, how about a frontal assault on Israeli army positions? Or... how about scrambling the Palestinian Air Force to take on the Jewish jets?
Perhaps an old fashioned tank battle would be more fun for you? The Palestinians probably could field several hundred 70s era cars, covered with tin sheets, and bristling with AK-47s. Fearsome indeed to the state-of-the-art Israeli iron.
By omitting the reason Arabs/Farsis hate Israel you betray your prejudices. Equating them with Nazis? Uh, who took whose property and is locking the people up in concentration camps?
You may wish to study a bit of the region's history to find out how Jews in that area were treated BEFORE they began to create the religious state of Israel. It further may interest you to find out how much of the current population of Israel indeed are first or second generation immigrants (aside: Palestinians have been there for thousands of years).
Spielberg's film is not-so-cleverly disguised propaganda and a poor film to boot. It is to be expected you'd be overwhelmed with its equanimity.
Now, see "Paradise Now" and report back.
preexistance of Israel in Jerusalem from when King David paid the previous owner for the land.Though they as a nation left the place for a few hundred years, they were there as a nation long before the time they temporarily vacated.Nobody is denying that to be uprooted at the point of a gun from the place your ancestors lived for hundreds of years,the only place you or any of your family have known as home as far as anyone can remember is a very difficult thing to allow.God knows most Americans would fight as did the Native Americans when my ancestors showed up all full of themselves manifesting their destiny all over someone else's homeland.The Divine Granting of that land is the only thing that sets it apart.Deny it all you like but Israelis,however strongly they protest that they are a purely secular society,fight for that land because they've believed the Creator of Heaven and Earth put them there for over 4,000 years.Denying that component or setting it at naught is not going to bring you a solution. It is my contention that it is the heart and key to the whole matter that the pride of man refuses to consider.
". . . preexistance of Israel in Jerusalem from when King David paid the previous owner for the land."If you are going to appeal to the Bible to settle the matter, you might want to review the history BEFORE the books of Samuel and the reign of David.
Genesis talks about "Canaanites in the land," and this was before Abram and his descendants set foot in the land.
Canaanites, naturally, were the native inhabitants of Canaan, a geographical name found in the Bible and other Near Eastern texts (Assyro-Babylonian and Egyptian texts). Terms like Syria/Palestine and Israel (originally name of a person/people, not a geographical name) belong to a much later period.
At any rate, native inhabitants were dwelling there long before the Israelites arrived . . .
townsend
That would be minus, of course, the years of the Lord God's banishment of them to Babylon. Also minus the years of the Lord God's banishment of them to Egypt. (The Lord God was not well pleased evidently.) Moreover, minus the years since the Romans burnt the Temple and drove them out of Palestine.Say! Haven't they been away, a hell of a lot more than they've been there? And haven't the "Palestinians" occupied the land consistently for twenty centuries? So, "Divine Granting" aside, whose land should it be anyway?
clark
That Israel considers itself to have the proverbial god given right is a form of delusional behaviour that would have an individual hospitalised (if there were any such treatments any more) in an instant.
I am repeatedly horrified that in the 21st century we still have so many peoples (on all sids) aligning themselves by such superstitions.
That America votes for a "God given the right to kill anyone president" TWICE no less is equally scary.The religious aspect of course can't be denied. But that is what most all wars I know of are fought over.
1) Religion
2) Land (thus money)
3) ideologyThough 3 is usually fixed with an ego the size of the planet - Hitler for instance.
.
"Except for the point, the still point, There would be no dance, and there is only the dance. " T.S. Eliot
Well maybe it is you who needs a primer in history.You are seeing the problem with today's eyes and a David and Goliath battle and it's always good to root for David in such battles. But yo forget that the rest of the story was not told -- 20 years later when Goliath has been beaten and now pleads poor me poor me when he started the fight in the first place.
Israel has done some pretty dumb things -- well dumb if people consider a live and let live philosophy. Every olive branch to the Arab world has been cut down -- I am positively amazed at how patient Israel has been and still is. The left wing view (which I personally lean toward) though has met with disasterous results and allowed a an Arab revisionist propaganda machine to roll on quite well.Israel has never engaged in an offensive war in that region (unless you count the air attack on Hussein's Nuclear weapons factory in which Hussein had SAID he would nuke Israel. Personally I call that a defensive tactic.
"Now, see "Paradise Now" and report back."
I don't watch films for my history thank you. Though I will note filmakers who use film as propaganda. When this thread started I rewatched Munich.
The film is about athletes who have nothing to do with war get wholesale slaughtered for a political stunt. And the Jews deciding to react. Spielberg's movie shows WHY the reaction was a BAD one. Precisely because it serves no purpose. Every member that Avner and his revenge squad killed was replaced by someone else maybe and often someone worse.
The last shot of the film shows the Twin Towers. The same thing - They hit us we hit back and what does it serve what will it serve?
As for the history -- if anything Israel should do a better job at getting the history out there more because I don't see how Palestine can be viewed as the moral "good guy" here.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding you.
Anyhow, someone comes to your town, RG, orders everyone out of their homes, shoots those who refuse or pretty much destroys the town if there's widespread resistance.
When the smoke clears, an entirely new group of people, directly related to the eviciting soldiers, occupy the town.
Of course, the new tenants don't want any change.
In your world, the previous tenants are just as guilty as the usurpers should they decide to fight for what has been taken. The usurpers want nothing but peace, having already won what they needed.
Firstly -- you didn't read the link I provided which is obvious. Jews were in fact "there first" David are the Jews (Israelies) outnumber more than 50-1. Despite those odds they overcame the Arabs for the land that was originally theirs lost and then essentially given back to them by the United Nations. Arafat can claim they want the land for "religious" or historical reasons until he and his followers are blue in the face -- but it is an OUTRIGHT LIE. They concocted that phony balony rubbish as an excuse to gain world wide support. And it has worked to some extent.The Jews are not clean handed -- after Munich (as Spielberg includes by the way) Israel bombed Palestine as a "reaction" Umm just like GWB bombed Iraq as a reaction to 9/11. And it sure didn;t get rid of terrorism. (Though at least in Israel's defense -- they attacked the right enemy).
"Anyhow, someone comes to your town, RG, orders everyone out of their homes, shoots those who refuse or pretty much destroys the town if there's widespread resistance."
I don't get it -- this is what the Arab's did to the Jews -- so are you sure you know which side your on?
We can go back and forth about this but land lost in war is LOST period. If we're talking about the morality of that then the United States and Canada should give the land back to the FIrst Nations -- they were here first and we took their land and their possessions. Israel created their state as a defense of people coming into their homes and slaughtering them. They finally said enough is bloody well enough.
They usually say that history is written by the victors and history is often not agreed upon depending who is doing the writing and WHEN the writing is being done.
And one thing I learned when getting my history degree was that the saying "It is important to learn history or else you are doomed to repeat it" is a fallacy. Most of societies' poweful who know their history learn how to do a better more discreet job of slaughtering people.
So I would far rather focus on the now. And whether someone believes that Israel is in the "right" or Palestine is in the "right" is totally irrelevant because neither of them agree with the other. The FACT is that Israel is a State and it is NOT going anywhere -- just like Canada and America are countries and all the First Nations complaining about it does not change the fact. I can sympathyze with them but at some point one has to accept the reality of the now. Israel IS NOT GOING ANYWHERE either by request or by force. Israel has offerred to "share" the land to stop the terrorism. Palestine and the rest of the anti-Jew states don;t want to share. What is interesting is the size of Israel and the size of the rest of the area. Look at the map -- Israel is a pittance of a country -- Palestians can "move away" to one of the neighbors without getting gassed. Israelies can't.
My idea would be to have an independant country such as Japan split right down the center a 20 mile wide zone under Japanese control (though UN financed) -- It would be a kind of super Berlin Wall).
It's either that division or something that ex PM Netanyahu suggested to stop terrorists.
He proposed a terrorist punishment program. If they find a terrorist or his or her remains and identify you -- then they would retaliate by killing every member of the terrorist's family.
You're going back to biblical times to justify what European powers did to create Israel?
2000 + years of history.... poof in your world!
Guess you're ready to support Native Americans should China decide at some point in the future to give them back these here states. Hey, that's only 300 years, too.
But it does not matter what I or anyone else supports -- Israel isn't going anywhere and every Palestine Bleeding heart cry baby (we were here first BS) is just arguments wasted. Israel created itself despite what may be on some papers.Until the people spending so much time whining and moaning about what SHOULD HAVE been done 40 years ago actually start disgussing the REALITY of the situation now then it's a moot point. Israel was not given anything -- they won the land through WAR, PERIOD. If Istrael should give back land they WON through war (and as a matter of fact they gave a LARGE chunk back) then why should not every other country do the same? Holding Israel to a higher standard I suppose is a compliment but I don't see why.
They are outnumbered more than 50-1 so maybe the Arabs should get together and win it back through war or MOVE THE HELL OUT and stop whining.
You say that I justify giving back land to the Jews who were there 2000 years ago -- so why do you want to give back land to Palestine who owned it 40 years ago? The number of years is semantics 40 or 2000. Seems to me that Jews owned it way back then FIRST and they own it now so what's the problem? Is it the anti-Jew anti-semitic nut jobs you support who could have left countless times and could have shared the land countless times but CHOOSE to play the poor me card and bomb kids on busses as often as they can.
Frankly I am amazed at the patience of Israel -- if they we the Hitler like concentration camp "evil-doers" that Palestian supporter believe them to be (or if the roles were reversed) I can tell you that there would be no Palestians left alive. That's the difference -- The roles would never be reversed because if the Palestinians were in charge it would be another holocaust.
We're running out of room on this planet and sooner rather than later people are going t have to learn to get along a lot better than they have been.
... when one side wants major change and the other side wants NO change, then just stopping fighting is no solution.
It requires the powerful to give something up and I don't see that about to happen.
See The Shadow Of The Palms for another, very real slice of Arab life.
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