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In Reply to: More disagreement here, you seem to be just re-stating your vision... posted by Victor Khomenko on January 16, 2007 at 06:16:43:
If you are going to buy into this kind of prejudicial belief system we have nothing more to talk about. I guess Kubrick is just another "Hollywood" film maker that never made a film that didn't fail "to steal your dreams or it's own promise" I guess Tinear must not have liked any of his movies. the idea that all film kmakers are bound to make a certain kind of movie because of their culture is absurd. Each movie is indeed it's own entitiy. Each movie will have it's own set of influences and in ^many^ cases those influences will be the culture of the film makers home but certainly not always. I'd like to see what Mexican cultural influences you think were affecting Children of Men? Is that a "Mexican" movie? Is it an "English" movie? Is it a "Hollywood" movie? Technically it is a "Hollywood" move but I'd like to know what you think this film is? What culture and tradition is this film a product of? If you say "Hollywood" then you clearly prove me right that the hasty generalizations made towards "Hollywood" are idiotic yet if you say "Mexican" or English" I think you will have a very difficult time supporting it.As for your cultural elitism comments, they are laughable. The idea that America lacks the cultural history and tradition to make good movies makes me think you have no knowledge of American history. It would be funny if it weren't so sad. Sorry Victor but everything you are saying here is purely ignorant and prejudicial. Did you know The United States of America actually has the oldest standing government on the face of this earth? Have you travelled the U.S? If so did you really fail to see the rich cultural heritiage of it's many regions? I mean can you really go to New Orleans or Boston or Chicago, or Santa Fe or any number of other places and not plainly see the effects of their rich cultural histories? Your comment is utterly absurd. Jazz, Blues, country and rock and roll were all the products of American culture. Hell 20th century world cultere was led by the nose by American culture. planes, trains and automobiles. I could go on and on. But the idea that we lack the culture to make good movies is silly stupid.
Your back to "Hollywood" comments, I hate to say it< speak of your ignorance in regards to how films are made both "Hollywood" films and films from other countries. The fact that you would see *the* divide as a national one and not one of the film makers themsleves tells me you neither know much about the making of films nor can you see past your own prejudices.
Sorry, I know this post was a bit rough on you but I call it like I see it. Feel free to prove me wrong. Just take my one example, The Children of Men, and show me that your assertions about "Hollywood" films is right and I will concede everything to you. even the absurd notion that America lacks the cultural history to make good movies ::cough::
Follow Ups:
Everyone knows, if you speak to someone who doesn't understand English, simply speak louder, they will get it.Oh, you can post as rough as you wish, that doesn't make you any more right. And your post is about 99% wrong... not 100% perhaps, but still close enough to be called totally wrong.
As far as your rather silly second paragraph... yes, I have done all that, and before jumping on your patronizing horse you should really first try to understand what I am talking about.
You write like someone who has never traveled outside the Boston-NO corridor, and certainly never opened up a fine European book, never listened to Mozart and never saw the 15th century Dutch paintings.
Let me break that horrible news to you - America has nothing of that. Get it? Zilch. It simply wasn't there when all that munumental world culture building was being erected. Therefore by late 19th century the best the American painters have been able to produce was riviling the Europeans ones of several centuries back.
American classical music? Opera? Poetry? Literature? There is some, absolutely, but the total body is nowhere near that found in Germany or France or Russia.
Deep, classical culture is not what America is about, and just a few trips to other parts of the world should teach you that.
BTW... planes, trains and automobiles are not part of culture, sorry to inform you. Well, maybe to you they are, but we are talking about fine aspect of same...
Let me give you another piece of news. When living in Europe, the high culture is everywhere, so one absorbs it by osmosis, you almost have to do nothing, and it still gets into you. By the time I was five I was able to hum most famous symphonies and concertos not because I was so smart of inquisitive, but because that was the only music I could hear all day long.
In America one has to search for high culture... it is there, but like gold, must be found and pulled out with labor.
Anyway, so far nothing in your post made me think anything new. There IS a strong nation divide, whether you wish to see it or now.
And last... America being rather poor on culture doesn't in any way make me lot it any less. I knew that before I came, and everything I had discovered since then only made me feel I had made right decision, and love it even more today. But apparently unlike you I am able to put things into right perspective.
"Everyone knows, if you speak to someone who doesn't understand English, simply speak louder, they will get it."Sorry I really thought you spoke the language I was speaking...
"Oh, you can post as rough as you wish, that doesn't make you any more right. And your post is about 99% wrong... not 100% perhaps, but still close enough to be called totally wrong."I am glad I did not hurt your feelings. that was my real concern in regards to it's roughness. You can say i am wong. doesn't make it so. OTOH you could prove I am wrong, if i really am wrong. So far all you haven't done that.
"As far as your rather silly second paragraph... yes, I have done all that, and before jumping on your patronizing horse you should really first try to understand what I am talking about."
Well, if you didn't explain it clearly the first time feel free to clarify. Your words as they were had a prety clear meaning. Your words:
"Some countries have long established cultural traditions - just look at France for one such example. They therefore have fertile soil that makes good works of art more likely.The US lacks such cultural history and tradition, I think we could agree on that."
Seems pretty clear you are saying The U.S, lacks the "cultural history and traditions" for the likelyhood of "good works of art." i think that is a silly, ignorant claim that stinks of a complete lack of knowledge of U.S history /culture, the culture that cultivated jazz, blues, rock and roll, country, Gershin, Copeland, Pollack, Wright, etc etc etc. there is no lack of such culture or the artistry that it spawns.
"You write like someone who has never traveled outside the Boston-NO corridor, and certainly never opened up a fine European book, never listened to Mozart and never saw the 15th century Dutch paintings."No, I write like a guy who doesn't really want to spend that much time explaining things to others on internet forums.
"Let me break that horrible news to you - America has nothing of that. Get it? Zilch. It simply wasn't there when all that munumental world culture building was being erected. Therefore by late 19th century the best the American painters have been able to produce was riviling the Europeans ones of several centuries back."
sorry but your explination once again says nothing other than you are ignorant on the subject of art. especially American art. I don't have time to educate you on it. Sorry.
"American classical music? Opera? Poetry? Literature? There is some, absolutely, but the total body is nowhere near that found in Germany or France or Russia.'
::sigh:: !. It's not just a question of quantity it is a question of quality and influence as well. the twentieth century, the century of cinema, was culturally dominated by the U.S. the rest that you are citing is h-i-s-t-o-r-y. I had every bit the access to European art as did you or anyone else growing up in Europe. we are talking film making here remember? you know, your assertion that American film makers were somehow lacking in culture. am I misinterpretating you here?
'Deep, classical culture is not what America is about, and just a few trips to other parts of the world should teach you that."
It's not what any counrty is about these days. Just a few trips to other parts of the world followed by a few steps on the streets should teach you that. the idea that the history of the various countries has such a profound and yet regionally limited affect on it's film makers as to dominate their merits is absurd and once again points to your complete ignorance in regards to the film making process.
"BTW... planes, trains and automobiles are not part of culture, sorry to inform you."
wrong.
" Well, maybe to you they are, but we are talking about fine aspect of same...'
culture has a real world meaning. "the customary beliefs, social forms, and material traits of a racial, religious, or social group" If you don't think that planes, trains and automobiles profoundly affected culture, both american and world culture i don't really kno what to say other than you just don't get culture.
"Let me give you another piece of news. When living in Europe, the high culture is everywhere, so one absorbs it by osmosis, you almost have to do nothing, and it still gets into you. By the time I was five I was able to hum most famous symphonies and concertos not because I was so smart of inquisitive, but because that was the only music I could hear all day long."
I have a bit of news for you. That is your personal story not the story of all Europe.
"In America one has to search for high culture... it is there, but like gold, must be found and pulled out with labor."
ooh now we are talking "high culture." you mean this version of culture now? "enlightenment and excellence of taste acquired by intellectual and aesthetic training " sorry but Europe has no monopoly on that either.
"Anyway, so far nothing in your post made me think anything new."
i didn't really think it would.
" There IS a strong nation divide, whether you wish to see it or now."
A strong national divide? You are just simplifying a very diverse "culture" that is America."And last... America being rather poor on culture doesn't in any way make me lot it any less. I knew that before I came, and everything I had discovered since then only made me feel I had made right decision, and love it even more today. But apparently unlike you I am able to put things into right perspective."
So you think you are right. that makes you just like almost everyone else. Prove your point and address the issues as they relate to a "Hollywood" film like Children of Men. when you can get back to the core issues here and back your claims we will have something more to talk about. as it is I'm just not buying what you are selling here.
You started pushing and I showed you wrong, that's all. You attacked tin with not much to show and it is not your turn to demand others explain to you how and where you are wrong. You start the argument - either prove it is right, or back off. But lemme tell ya - there is no proof. You are pushing like a mad bull as somehow there were some absolutes in art. There aren't any. So your love for Hollywood films is just as justifiable as tin's dislike - too bad you can't acknowledge his righ to know something. So you were called on your bluff and all you did was start shouting louder - none of your follow up posts contained any new "revelations".So you like Hollywood - big deal. I don't - also big deal. It is people like you getting out of shape over such silly issues that is funny.
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