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better than I expected. First, the acting is superb. I did not recognize anyone in the film, but all MUST be Royal Shakespeare. The film is presented in a Shakespearean manner and these people are flawless. They could do Lear or Hamlet at the drop of a hat. Can't say the same for our Damon or Pitt.Good story, many interesting plot twists, and I do not know my history well wnough to know what is creative license and what is history. Soem scary GCI mosnters to attack our brave Spartans. I loved the scenes of the arrows covering the sun.
GOOD
Follow Ups:
just couldn't fanthom he is the same guy in that "sissy" singing role just last year. great.
I am lifting this from the Wikipedia section on Sparta so forgive an wikicisms that are left in it.
Women
Spartan women enjoyed a status, power and respect that was unknown in the rest of the classical world. They controlled their own properties, as well as the properties of male relatives who were away with the army. It is estimated that women were the sole owners of at least 40% of all land and property in Sparta.[11] The laws regarding a divorce were the same for both men and women. Spartan women received as much education as men, as well as a substantial amount of physical education and gymnastic training. They rarely got married before the age of 20, and unlike Athenian women who wore heavy, concealing clothes and were rarely seen outside the house, Spartan women wore short dresses and went where they pleased.[9][12]
Women, being more independent than in other Greek societies, were able to negotiate with their husbands to bring their lovers into their homes. According to Plutarch in his Life of Lycurgus, men both allowed and encouraged their wives to bear the children of other men, due to the general communal ethos which made it more important to bear many progeny for the good of the city, than to be jealously concerned with one's own family unit. However, some historians argue that this 'wife sharing' was only reserved for elder males who had not yet produced an heir[citation needed]. For this reason, Plutarch claims that the concept of "adultery" was alien to the Spartans, and relates that one ancient Spartan had said that it was as possible "to find a bull with a neck long enough to stand on a mountain top and drink from a river below", as to find an adulterer in Sparta.
Culture
Museum of Sparta
Museum of Sparta
Marble statue of a helmed hoplite (5th century BC), possibly Leonidas, Sparta, Archæological Museum of Sparta, Greece
Marble statue of a helmed hoplite (5th century BC), possibly Leonidas, Sparta, Archæological Museum of Sparta, GreeceUntil the age of seven, boys were educated at home and were taught to fight their fears as well as general superstition by their nurses, who were prized in Greece. Their official training was then undertaken by the state in the agoge system and supervised by the paidonomos, an official appointed for that purpose. This training consisted for the most part in physical exercises, such as dancing, gymnastics, and ball-games.The Dorians were the first to practice nudity in athletics, as well as oiling the body during exercise to enhance its beauty, a costly practice which broke with the customary frugality of the Spartans.[13] According to Plato this practice was introduced from Crete to Sparta, and then to the rest of Greece.
Training in music and literature occupied a subordinate position. The tireless emphasis on physical training gave Spartans the reputation for being “laconic”, economical with words, a word derived from the name of their homeland of Laconia. Education was also extended to girls, in the belief that strong and intelligent mothers would produce strong and intelligent children. Thus modern day historians, with the corroboration of ancient writers, tend to conclude that Spartan women were among the most educated in the ancient Greek world. Both sexes exercised nude and because of this a strong emphasis was placed on the physical fitness of men as well as women. Despite their physical fitness, women could not compete in the Olympic Games, according to the Olympic rules (they competed in the Heraea Games instead). However, there were a number of Spartan princesses who led female troops[citation needed]. There were also contests to see who could take the most severe flogging, an ordeal known as diamastigosis.
Between leaving the agoge and joining a syssitia a select few young men were arranged into groups, and were sent off into the countryside with nothing, and were expected to survive on wits and cunning. It was assumed that they would steal their food, yet anyone caught stealing was severely punished. Many speculate that this was to teach the young Spartans stealth and quickness. If you were caught it was concluded that you were not quick enough or silent enough. This was called the Crypteia, secret (ritual). This was very probably, in origin, an old initiation rite, a preparation for their later career as elite soldiers. Other sources claim that the Crypteia (or Krypteia) was an "adolescent death squad" made up of the most promising young Spartans. Their job was to roam the countryside killing Helots at night in order to instill fear in the slave population and prevent rebellion.
Spartan men were required to marry at age 20 after completing the Crypteia. A Spartan wedding was not highly ritualized and consisted of the intended bride being abducted with simulated violence. After the wedding night the husband remained living in his barracks and would have no further contact with his wife except for the purpose of procreation. This was ritualized with the wife having to shave her head and dress in male clothing[citation needed] while the husband would wait until his friends had gone to sleep before leaving the barracks to do his duty and then returning before they were aware of his absence.
Poor knowledge on Spartan traditions is the result of Sparta's secrecy. Most modern theories are based on assumptions derived from ancient sources and parallels drawn between Sparta and contemporary Dorian Greek societies such as Crete. Some scholars assume that the custom of pederasty paralleled the mentoring relations between Spartan males and adolescent boys, common in Dorian societies. Some of the ancient scholars seem to have supported an opposing view: Xenophon writes that Lycurgus efficiently managed to cultivate chaste pederasty in the Spartan society.[14] This however tends to be viewed as an attempt of praise towards Sparta, and not necessarily as a sincere remark. Aristotle also wrote that Sparta belonged to the type of military society that was based on heterosexual relationship, unlike other Greek states of his time. However, an examination of the historical details reveals that "references to particular homosexual attachments of Spartans are conspicuous even by Greek standards".[14] Cicero furthermore asserts that, "The Lacedaemonians, while they permit all things except outrage (hubris, referring here to homosexual coitus[citation needed]) in the love of youths, certainly distinguish the forbidden by a thin wall of partition from the sanctioned, for they allow embraces and a common couch to lovers.'[15] In antiquity it was thought that a youth was expected to find himself an older lover, and that pederasty, a social practice common throughout most of Greece, was especially so in Sparta, where the ephors fined any eligible man who did not have chaste relationships with youths.[16]
So now we know...
i think i was busy enjoying seeing all those arms and heads being chopped off than speculating at what these like-minded men may be doing 2500 years ago. what fun. it's been a while i enjoyed a film this much since natural born killers.
i was not just oggling at the blood and gore, just at the beautiful way at how the scenes were shot. much like a pre-hollywood chow yuen fatt movie.
Excuse the uninformed question ... but I though this film was mostly computer generated. How much of the acting is done by live actors, and how much by computer generated images. Somewhere I had gotten the impression that this was another film like "Polar Express", in which Tom Hanks "appears." Would appreciate a brief fill-in. Comparisons I have seen to "Sin City" have also intrugued me.
> Excuse the uninformed question ... but I though this film was mostly computer generated.Not by a longshot
> How much of the acting is done by live actors,
All of it.
> and how much by computer generated images.
None of it.
> Somewhere I had gotten the impression that this was another film like "Polar Express", in which Tom Hanks "appears."
Not even close.
> Would appreciate a brief fill-in. Comparisons I have seen to "Sin City" have also intrugued me.Those are the most fair comparisons. The movie was shot on sound stages with actual practical sets and live actors with blue screens and green screens for the extended backgrounds. anything that was tangable for the actors was physical. a lot of the live action was digitally composited but it was composites of things that were actually shot on film in the flesh so to speak. There were some CGI elephants and a rhino. There was a CGI scene of ships crashing on the rocks in a massive storm. Some of the Persian masses seen from a great distance were all CGI. Some of the physical wounds in battle were a combination of live action and CGI composityes such as decapitations and other live action physical damage. The "look" of the film was created digitally but was in effect like a film process where contrast was crushed to blow out the hilights, blacked the deep shadows, desaturate the color and skew the spectrum toward yellow for day and blue for night. Oh and the enlaged eye of the hunchback was digitally animated. He was otherwise an actor in a suit and prosthetic makeup.
Thanks for the nifty synopsis.
... together with the comic(book)ally overstated musculature and we have absolutely cliched fascist/camp imagery revisited.
Is this stuff really popular outside a few political monsters and the self-aware and self-mocking gay community?
What was that gay artist's name? Ken of Denmark? Something like that who popularised this vision of the Superman...
If the elephants look too big, you should remember that people were a lot shorter back then.
Seriously, it was just part of the blur. It did not register that all were clean and shaven.Those referring to all this flesh pageantry need a homo self-check themselves.
Also, Leonidas made some smug remarks about Athenians being to busy with the boys to make the scene.
This was good fun and very over the top--like a comic book!
.........
"Doris, I have always loved you." Click, buzzzzzz.
Apparently not the intent of either film or graphic novel.
.
Funny thing, movies can have tons of T&A and it is considered normal but show a little male flesh and it's homoerotic. Kinda male-centric homophobic perspective don't ya think? The only substantial sex scene I remember was quite heterosexual. So was it the kissing concubines? Or to be fair, has every movie that used T&A been homoerotic as well from a woman's perspective? frankly, I think we were just equal oportunists when it came to offering sexual eye candy to the audience. The audiences had just grown acustomed to a complete imbalance born from a male-centric homophobic perspective in film making.
And it's not to do with the showing of them.
You could argue most actresses are still siliconed and teased, dieted amd exercised into just as ludicrous a shape as the guys in 300.
Pretty much takes any chance of reality out of the films before they start.
Look how Elizabeth Hurley was trimmed down.. well starved might some it up better, from that absolute ravishing look which seemed to give her instant celebrity at the opening of 4 Weddings until she had none of the original beauty left.
The concentration camp thinness of actresses whose only shape seems to come from the zeppelins attached to their chests.
The fixation on "perfection" and "beauty" is bewildering, but then perhaps the notion that people want to escape from their humdrum lives into a film is at the heart of it.
And as I don't want to start an entire political dissection of US culture, let's not start that one here... OK!
Perhaps this is the American Mythology.
I hope not.
"'I am the God-King,' said Xerxes, 'and I have the gold-encrusted Speedo and the encyclopedic knowledge of the lyrics of Guys and Dolls to prove it!'"and
"Fills a much-needed gap between gay porn and recruitment film."
I didn't really think it was all that homo-erotic but your statement "... but show a little male flesh and it's homoerotic" is - considering the fetishization of the Spartans' maleness and their look and costumes - a bit disingenuous.
The idea that the film-makers dressed them like they did (and had them get buffed up like they did) without having a sense of that potential is a little silly to me.
And, intentional or not Xerxes did come across like a big (literally and figuratively) queen. I don't know how anyone involved with the film wouldn't have noticed that immediately.
P.S. I enjoyed the movie. Rousing good fun.
Don't piss on my shoe and tell me it's raining.
Sounds like the volleyball game in Top Gun.
> I didn't really think it was all that homo-erotic but your statement "... but show a little male flesh and it's homoerotic" is - considering the fetishization of the Spartans' maleness and their look and costumes - a bit disingenuous.How on earth is it disingenuous? i don't see them as "fetishized." Funny I never heard anyone say that about the actual artwork by the Greeks themselves that inspired their look in the film. Why do you suppose that is?
> The idea that the film-makers dressed them like they did
As per frank Miller's designs.
> (and had them get buffed up like they did)
As one would find in just about any comic book.
> without having a sense of that potential is a little silly to me.
One thing we didn't do was worry about every weird interpretation audiences might have. If film makers worry about political correctness to that degree they ultimately put out plain vanilla forgetable films.
> And, intentional or not Xerxes did come across like a big (literally and figuratively) queen. I don't know how anyone involved with the film wouldn't have noticed that immediately.
I guess we just weren't carrying the same baggage us those who saw Xerxes as gay. I mean this is a movie that has been called gay and facist in the same sentence. Go figure.
"As per frank Miller's designs""As one would find in just about any comic book."
My point wasn't about where the look came from just it's surprising to me that in creating, filming, editing and presenting that look it wasn't anticipated that some people would see it as homo-erotic.
I'm not one of those people but it's (very) easy to see why it could be perceived that way.
And one needn't have any baggage to see Xerxes as queeny. The performance/presentation/voice manipulation kind of speaks for itself. Not saying it was intended but I mean... come on.
By the way... nice work on the film... it is a visual feast. I see you worked on the original Jackass. Do you know Lance Bangs and Spike J.? I do a lot of editing for each of them.
Don't piss on my shoe and tell me it's raining.
Not, however, any of my gay friends who saw it. Seems to me it's mostly str8 dudes who concern themselves with that dubious aspect.clark
> And one needn't have any baggage to see Xerxes as queeny. The performance/presentation/voice manipulation kind of speaks for itself. Not saying it was intended but I mean... come on."Queeny" is that the same as gay? We think we just disagree on this one. But hey, i'm a Bowie fan and never assumed he was gay by his theatrics. I think the baggage is there and comes with an either/or mind set. And perhaps we were quite naive in ignoring the fat that many people have such baggage. Well, no. I suppose we just didn't care. But no one I know at the time ever even raised an eyebrow. Maybe everyone was just more caught up in the transformation.
> By the way... nice work on the film... it is a visual feast.Thank you. Much appreciated.
> I see you worked on the original Jackass. Do you know Lance Bangs and Spike J.? I do a lot of editing for each of them.
I don't know them personally. I was on Jackass only for one weekend for the old age makeups. I never felt it warrented credit. I have worked far more extensively on other films without getting credit like the first Pirates of the Caribean movie. I feel like I sold my soul when I worked on Jackass. Truth be told, the movie cracked me up. A very very very guilty pleasure.
Do you think this film will be remembered in 6 months?
Here it's being seen as funny and almost certainly a candyfloss film that will be forgotten about.
And as for the abdominal showmen...
Does the film really have "ninjas" in it as reviews here have mentioned along with giants and rhinos, for which there seems no historical data?
If it's just a story I wonder why it was necessary to start with a real point in history.
Paul Cartledge, who wrote Thermopylae: The Battle That Changed The World and who was hired as a consultant has said he was only asked one thing. He said the name was spoken as LeonEEdas but the filmmakers went with LeonEYEdas anyway.
Hell yes. I think it will be one of the icons of this generation of films. Remember the critics are mixed onthis film. about 60% pro 40% con. Raiders of the lost ark, Bladerunner, The Matrix etc. They were all in about the same boat. Well, Bladerunner was actually a flop at the box office. Yes, i think this will be one of those films to this generation of younger movie goers.
... this week and get back to you on it!
Not that I can speak for younger movie goers any more...
But I do know a number of 30-odd-ish types who want to see it.
In my mid-50s I may not be the typical viewer... but I get to 2 or 3 films (at the cinema) a week and... well, why not?
I may well go and see it myself, but I expect to laugh as much as be.. inspired...
Now if only The Village People had done the main theme.
made for a different persuasion crowd.
I haven't seen it, not out of homophobia but out of cgi-phobia. But perhaps 300 might be considered homoerotic by some because it's a war movie designed to appeal to a male audience. Women aren't going to see 300 in large numbers; they don't consider the imagery sexually appealing.In contrast, I wouldn't label a chick flick that showed lots of male flesh in a manner that appealed to women as "homoerotic", even if it also happened to find an audience among some gay males.
they go in slow motion, then speeded up. Blood flies at the viewer and disappears (cf Children of Men).
And have admitted to finding it sexually appealing. Gerry Butler has quite a following amoungst the ladies. Don't let CGI phobia get in your way. It actually serves the movie in this case.
... hearted comment based on a radio review I heard this week.
That reviewer (she) found the hairless chests hilarious and commented that the over played (comic book) macho-ness seemed a bit over compensating.
I guess you could easily (and I think I may have) said the same about much comic art and in fact much American culture.
Or look at the accentuated physiques of American football players with the huge shoulder pads...
It suddenly comes to mind that that is exactly what The Village People were satirising in their stage appearance, isn't it?
This may be a film forum, but it seems a valid enough point, the closeted maleness of American culture...
I am running for a hard hat now...
Oh, my bad. I got the impression you really saw facism propaganda in this film. Sorry but so many people have said the same things and really meant them. Maybe it is the shameless disregard for playing it safe and being politically correct on our part that has brought out the issues in some of the viewers. This I will tell you. We were surprised by most of it. There were a few times while shooting where we scratched our heads and asked if we were crossing the line. the first was when we had young Leonidas beating another kid to near death two minutes into the movie. Oddly enough no one seems to have had an issue with this so far. the other was, well cut out. A line by the captain about dying with the smell of fine Persian wine on their breath and Persian whores on their cocks. I am not kidding. we shot that. I didn't know the Village people were satirising anything. I thought that was genuine homoeroticism.
... I tell you what... I will go and see the film this week.
If no one on the production saw how the imagery would be taken by.. well, by quite a lot of people, let's say, then I should have taken the job I was offered when I was in LA in 1991!
As for The Village People... well, I couldn't resist dropping that in...
But I think they satire and the reality of the eroticism are BOTH true.
Do you remember when gays suddenly seemed to all grow moustaches? Another adoption of an overly macho look.
Back in Britain, after skinheads took to "gay-bashing", gay men took to shaved heads, check shirts and Doc Martens boots.
As someone who has worked in promotion in the music business, been a designer and has written, I am maybe hyper sensitive to this kind of stuff, but 300 has gotten a lot more of this criticism than Sin City did and that had the same inflated machismo in many ways.
In my opinion, many military cultures (and given 6 months and a good advance I could write a book comparing Sparta with the USA) have this closet-gay-macho thing going on.
Also back then being gay wasn't much of an issue. Ancient Greeks even went for the old man young boy thing... but it's SInday (that was a genuine typo!!... really) morning and I still haven't eaten... BREAKFAST, I mean!
I know that a lot of people have gone to extremes to read thiongs into this movie that simply are not there but this may beat them all.I have to warn you. the makers of this film are laughing their asses off at all the bizarre politics certain people are imagining to be in this movie.
But so are a lot of other people!
Maybe we can find something we can all laugh at...
U.S. male culture is severely in the closet.
You managed to come up with aomw sort of logic that is even more bizarre. Let me see if I have this right. The absurdity of your original motion that hairless chests is a sign a facism proves the point that U.S. male culture is severely in the closet. Kind of.
Brilliant.
What is it about a mythical look at an historic event that took place 2500 years ago that brings out the political nuttiness in some people?
I'm not sure what is mythical about it.
I do not believe anyone who works in movies is unaware of the imagery used by fascist and totalitarian states and which is largely the same as this.
Check out the Nazis' and Italian fascists' love of "classical" looking buildings and their hatred of modernism.
The Aryan superman...
This film isn't mythical it's fictional. It's a comic book come to life. Imaginatively so. But as such it carries the ludicrous machismo of this US culture with it.
> I'm not sure what is mythical about it.The entire look for starters. The entire presentation as well.
> I do not believe anyone who works in movies is unaware of the imagery used by fascist and totalitarian states and which is largely the same as this.Well now you do. I am totally unaware of such imagry.
> Check out the Nazis' and Italian fascists' love of "classical" looking buildings and their hatred of modernism.So this is guilt by association? I love that look too. So does that make me a facist? The look of the Spartans was based directly on Frank Miller's graphic Novel. His inspiration was largely from classical art and the art from ancient greece depicting these events.
> The Aryan superman...Hey don't blame the Greek artists and poets for what Hitler did.
> This film isn't mythical it's fictional.You are wrong on both counts. For a mythical presentation it is remarkably factual.
> It's a comic book come to life. Imaginatively so.
Well this smells of the old "it's a comic book so it's dumb" mentality. Yes it is a comic book. Yes it is visually stylized (mythic) but it was very well researched.
> But as such it carries the ludicrous machismo of this US culture with it.No, It carries the machismo of ancient Sparta. The connections to contemperary cultures and events are what others like yourself are reading into it. That stuff was never on our minds when we were making this.
One point I would raise, what do you...I...we... mean by myth(ic)?
I have a feeling we might be using the word differently to each other.
"Yes it is visually stylized (mythic) but it was very well researched."
Presumably largely using the Cartledge source, or was that just for the film?
The Herodotus version would seem to be the ultimate source and as ever with stories/events this old, we take what we have and probably a lot of puff with it but who could tell?
I am genuinely surprised that Frank Miller isn't realising the comparisons that could/will/have been made between Sparta and modern USA. I would actually have guessed he was setting that sort of thing up, but that's just my presumption.
Isn't the Aryan superman (OK so the Spartans aren't blonde supermen) a mythic figure by now? Or at least a stereotype?
OK, I will let you the fact that in going back to Sparta, you could possibly ignore the modern interpretation of such a figure (the Nazi) as you are staging the story before that event, and going to the source.
But are the shaved chests a historical thing?????????
Just a joke but then again...
I will go to see it tomorrow or Tuesday and see for myself.
I think my delicate sensibilities will survive!
I don't mind big stories... I even watched the whole of Alexander...
> One point I would raise, what do you...I...we... mean by myth(ic)?Mythic where the truth becomes stretched to legend. Homer's Illiad and Odyssey, Beowolf, King Arthur and the Knights of the round table. Stories rooted in history but epic and magical in their accounts.
> I have a feeling we might be using the word differently to each other.
"Yes it is visually stylized (mythic) but it was very well researched."
Presumably largely using the Cartledge source, or was that just for the film?I don't know allthe sources frank Miller or Zack used but I know they both went to great legths to know the history. Miller even visited the original locations before hew began drawing.
> The Herodotus version would seem to be the ultimate source and as ever with stories/events this old, we take what we have and probably a lot of puff with it but who could tell?Ultimately Herodotus was the primary source. And I think much of the attitude in this movie comes straight from him. certainly several lines were taken stright from Herodotus. ironically lines that have been much maligned as stupid by some critics that didn't think to do their homework. Those critics made me laugh.
> I am genuinely surprised that Frank Miller isn't realising the comparisons that could/will/have been made between Sparta and modern USA. I would actually have guessed he was setting that sort of thing up, but that's just my presumption.I doubt he was setting anything up. he wrote the graphic novel back in 98. Between then and the release of the movie it was never an issue to my knowledge.
> Isn't the Aryan superman (OK so the Spartans aren't blonde supermen) a mythic figure by now? Or at least a stereotype?We never saw the guys as Aryan. Richard Cetrone, Guillermo Grispo, Patrick Sabongui, Chad Stahelski and Daniel Hernandez don't really fit the bill. actually most of our Spartans also played Persians. the idea was pretty non Aryan. they were Spartans, they were trained to the hilt to be the best warriors in all the world and they were modelled after the drawings of a comic book artist.
> OK, I will let you the fact that in going back to Sparta, you could possibly ignore the modern interpretation of such a figure (the Nazi) as you are staging the story before that event, and going to the source.
That is pretty much it.
> But are the shaved chests a historical thing?????????No. that is a style thing. but so are 20 foot elephants. Immortals played as man/beasts, ephores as hideous diseased men, etc etc. The *imagry* is highly stylized. But it is mostly taken from actual Greek art.
> Just a joke but then again...No, I getcha but you'd be surprised how many people saw this as some sort of statement about race and/or sexuality when in fact it was merely an attempt to be true to the artwork.
> I will go to see it tomorrow or Tuesday and see for myself.Gosh, I hope you like it. I feel after all this it will be my fault you went.
> I think my delicate sensibilities will survive!
I don't mind big stories... I even watched the whole of Alexander...You out lasted me there.
... I go to a lot of films, even Indian ones, so the length of a film like Alexander really isn't an issue!
As someone in the film industry, Scott, maybe you can answer me this...
Given the fact that they are so alike; brash colours, ludicrous plots that stop for singing and dancing and a romantic plotline running through them, which came first, Bollywood or Elvis Presley movies?
I keep asking people here and no one else seems to have seen the connection...
Working on a Bollywood extraveganza is still on my things to do before I die list. But what can I say, I enjoy Elvis movies. Viva Las Vegas on the big screen with a box of popcorn.....
Although I don't think Elvis did anything better than King Creole (even the Crawfish song may be the best thing he ever recorded) and Flaming Star.
although the elephants were way oversized I never thought of them or the rhino as monsters.
.
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