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In Reply to: Just when I thought you peaked.... posted by Analog Scott on April 7, 2007 at 07:36:45:
I'm not sure what is mythical about it.
I do not believe anyone who works in movies is unaware of the imagery used by fascist and totalitarian states and which is largely the same as this.
Check out the Nazis' and Italian fascists' love of "classical" looking buildings and their hatred of modernism.
The Aryan superman...
This film isn't mythical it's fictional. It's a comic book come to life. Imaginatively so. But as such it carries the ludicrous machismo of this US culture with it.
Follow Ups:
> I'm not sure what is mythical about it.The entire look for starters. The entire presentation as well.
> I do not believe anyone who works in movies is unaware of the imagery used by fascist and totalitarian states and which is largely the same as this.Well now you do. I am totally unaware of such imagry.
> Check out the Nazis' and Italian fascists' love of "classical" looking buildings and their hatred of modernism.So this is guilt by association? I love that look too. So does that make me a facist? The look of the Spartans was based directly on Frank Miller's graphic Novel. His inspiration was largely from classical art and the art from ancient greece depicting these events.
> The Aryan superman...Hey don't blame the Greek artists and poets for what Hitler did.
> This film isn't mythical it's fictional.You are wrong on both counts. For a mythical presentation it is remarkably factual.
> It's a comic book come to life. Imaginatively so.
Well this smells of the old "it's a comic book so it's dumb" mentality. Yes it is a comic book. Yes it is visually stylized (mythic) but it was very well researched.
> But as such it carries the ludicrous machismo of this US culture with it.No, It carries the machismo of ancient Sparta. The connections to contemperary cultures and events are what others like yourself are reading into it. That stuff was never on our minds when we were making this.
One point I would raise, what do you...I...we... mean by myth(ic)?
I have a feeling we might be using the word differently to each other.
"Yes it is visually stylized (mythic) but it was very well researched."
Presumably largely using the Cartledge source, or was that just for the film?
The Herodotus version would seem to be the ultimate source and as ever with stories/events this old, we take what we have and probably a lot of puff with it but who could tell?
I am genuinely surprised that Frank Miller isn't realising the comparisons that could/will/have been made between Sparta and modern USA. I would actually have guessed he was setting that sort of thing up, but that's just my presumption.
Isn't the Aryan superman (OK so the Spartans aren't blonde supermen) a mythic figure by now? Or at least a stereotype?
OK, I will let you the fact that in going back to Sparta, you could possibly ignore the modern interpretation of such a figure (the Nazi) as you are staging the story before that event, and going to the source.
But are the shaved chests a historical thing?????????
Just a joke but then again...
I will go to see it tomorrow or Tuesday and see for myself.
I think my delicate sensibilities will survive!
I don't mind big stories... I even watched the whole of Alexander...
> One point I would raise, what do you...I...we... mean by myth(ic)?Mythic where the truth becomes stretched to legend. Homer's Illiad and Odyssey, Beowolf, King Arthur and the Knights of the round table. Stories rooted in history but epic and magical in their accounts.
> I have a feeling we might be using the word differently to each other.
"Yes it is visually stylized (mythic) but it was very well researched."
Presumably largely using the Cartledge source, or was that just for the film?I don't know allthe sources frank Miller or Zack used but I know they both went to great legths to know the history. Miller even visited the original locations before hew began drawing.
> The Herodotus version would seem to be the ultimate source and as ever with stories/events this old, we take what we have and probably a lot of puff with it but who could tell?Ultimately Herodotus was the primary source. And I think much of the attitude in this movie comes straight from him. certainly several lines were taken stright from Herodotus. ironically lines that have been much maligned as stupid by some critics that didn't think to do their homework. Those critics made me laugh.
> I am genuinely surprised that Frank Miller isn't realising the comparisons that could/will/have been made between Sparta and modern USA. I would actually have guessed he was setting that sort of thing up, but that's just my presumption.I doubt he was setting anything up. he wrote the graphic novel back in 98. Between then and the release of the movie it was never an issue to my knowledge.
> Isn't the Aryan superman (OK so the Spartans aren't blonde supermen) a mythic figure by now? Or at least a stereotype?We never saw the guys as Aryan. Richard Cetrone, Guillermo Grispo, Patrick Sabongui, Chad Stahelski and Daniel Hernandez don't really fit the bill. actually most of our Spartans also played Persians. the idea was pretty non Aryan. they were Spartans, they were trained to the hilt to be the best warriors in all the world and they were modelled after the drawings of a comic book artist.
> OK, I will let you the fact that in going back to Sparta, you could possibly ignore the modern interpretation of such a figure (the Nazi) as you are staging the story before that event, and going to the source.
That is pretty much it.
> But are the shaved chests a historical thing?????????No. that is a style thing. but so are 20 foot elephants. Immortals played as man/beasts, ephores as hideous diseased men, etc etc. The *imagry* is highly stylized. But it is mostly taken from actual Greek art.
> Just a joke but then again...No, I getcha but you'd be surprised how many people saw this as some sort of statement about race and/or sexuality when in fact it was merely an attempt to be true to the artwork.
> I will go to see it tomorrow or Tuesday and see for myself.Gosh, I hope you like it. I feel after all this it will be my fault you went.
> I think my delicate sensibilities will survive!
I don't mind big stories... I even watched the whole of Alexander...You out lasted me there.
... I go to a lot of films, even Indian ones, so the length of a film like Alexander really isn't an issue!
As someone in the film industry, Scott, maybe you can answer me this...
Given the fact that they are so alike; brash colours, ludicrous plots that stop for singing and dancing and a romantic plotline running through them, which came first, Bollywood or Elvis Presley movies?
I keep asking people here and no one else seems to have seen the connection...
Working on a Bollywood extraveganza is still on my things to do before I die list. But what can I say, I enjoy Elvis movies. Viva Las Vegas on the big screen with a box of popcorn.....
Although I don't think Elvis did anything better than King Creole (even the Crawfish song may be the best thing he ever recorded) and Flaming Star.
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