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In Reply to: vote for best Pacific War movie posted by Nick on May 08, 2001 at 02:44:39:
"Hell In The Pacific" - 1968, starring L. Marvin and T. Mifune. - AH
Follow Ups:
In WWII, he was a Marine wounded in the Battle of Saipan. It couldn't have hurt his chances of being cast in that film.
he too was a Marine in WWII and was wounded in Okinawa. - AH
That battle had a buildup which equals or surpasses the Normandy invasion and intense fighting which equals or surpasses Stalingrad.Thousands of kamikazes, worlds largest battleship Yamamoto sent without fuel for the return, tunnel networks galore...can't even begin to imagine the horror. And the intense hatred the two sides had for each other, must have been utterly brutal. I think of the more than 100000 japanese defenders, about a dozen survived. Luckily the Geneva convention did not exsist yet, or that battle probably would have had a lot more publicity on the negative side. War is hell!
***That battle had a buildup which equals or surpasses the Normandy invasion and intense fighting which equals or surpasses Stalingrad.Interesting... "surpassed Stalingrad"?... care to dump some facts on us? If my memory is right, out of about 330,000 germans only 90,000 survived Stalingrad. Add to that all the Germans on the other side, plus the Luftwaffe...
Stalingrad will forever be the ultimate hellhole.Hey vic. Any great Russian war movies you can recommend? Preferably with english subtitles.
***Stalingrad will forever be the ultimate hellhole.I'd say. According to some sources it was the largest battle ever in the history. Also, about one million deaths attributed to that battle.
***Hey vic. Any great Russian war movies you can recommend? Preferably with english subtitles.Obvioulsy there were a lot of propaganda films, but some of them were exceptionally good. Just off the top of my head: "The Cranes are Flying" (a tremendous film), "Ballad of a Soldier" (unforgettable), and perhaps "Childhood of Ivan" (by Tarkovsky).
I know the last one IS available with subtitles, have no idea about the other ones.
Hello Victor,Have you seen the epic 2 part Stalingrad film made shortly after the war ? I've only ever read about it, I'm sure it is very "patriotic" but what is it like as a war film and historical piece ? Plenty of equipment available as well (did you notice that the chassis of the Tiger tanks in Saving Private Ryan were t-34's ? I thought they looked a bit small).
***Have you seen the epic 2 part Stalingrad film made shortly after the war ? I've only ever read about it, I'm sure it is very "patriotic" but what is it like as a war film and historical piece ?Sorry, I don't recall that film.
***Plenty of equipment available as well (did you notice that the chassis of the Tiger tanks in Saving Private Ryan were t-34's ? I thought they looked a bit small).No, I didn't notice. But in terms of war trivia, Germany used a lot of captured equipment and weapons, from virtually any country. So for instance, during the Jursk battle, when the two tank armies collided at Prokhorovka, there were many captured T-34's in the SS tank divisiona.
Germans were constantly short on weapons, so they put everything they could get their hands on into action - Russian rufles, Czeck weapons, even the Norvegian .45 caliber pistol - so yes, there WAS out beloved .45 in service of Wehrmacht.
But I am not the great expert on tank siluettes - alghouth I have the Soviet tank colonel working here with us, and I am sure he would be able to spot any such inconsistencies in a microsecond.
On the subject of an epic war movie - there was a completely monumental work produced in USSR I think in 1975, to commemorate the 30th aniversary of the Victory. It consisted of, I believe, four parts, each one probably over two hours long, wide screen format and incredible battle scenes. It was probably called "Great Patrioic War" (a no-brainer...) and they collected many, many excellent actors in that film.
to paint very large black crosses on the turrets of the captured t-34's etc. (to make sure their own anti- tank units did not fire on them!) On their snow camouflage background, these large crosses must have looked like very nice targets for the Russians!The Germans also used the captured Russian 76mm cannon effectively- using it in many anti- tank designs on their older Pz1 chassis etc.
I thought the 1992 Stalingrad was very good- and unusual being told from the viewpoint of the German infantry, I haven't seen Enemy at the Gates- got some bad reviews- wait for the DVD to rent.
I'm trying to think of the title to one of the best films I've seen set in WW2- I'll post it when I remember- it was Russian.
***I'm trying to think of the title to one of the best films I've seen set in WW2- I'll post it when I remember- it was Russian.I would be quite curious...
I know that whenever anybody says "the best film of its genre" you are always suspicious- but nothing prepared me for the onslaught of this film.Written and directed by Elem Klimov, it is set during the retreat of the Germans from Belarus. If you want to see where Spielberg stole many of his ideas for Saving Private Ryan- this is the film.
Unlike Hollywood, this film does not spare the viewer anything. Emotionally a very disturbing and haunting film. I'm not even sure I'd like to see it again-
I didn't see that one, it was after my time, so to say (1985). I remember some of the earlier Klimov's work, commedies... so this would be quite a turn for him. I could probably find it locally at the Russian store, but my wife might object to it - she is very sensitive to scenes of suffering.But I cal always watch it by myself... is it really that good? Dmitry, did you see it (that guy is often few steps ahead of me in certain areas).
I agree with you regarding that silly "best" title, and in that category it would have to compete with some of the best movies ever - see my short list elsewhere in this discussion.
...this review and it makes me want to see it. It sounds like I will definitely have to watch it alone, though.http://us.imdb.com/Title?0091251#comment
But discussing the horrors of war of this scale is impossible without bringing personal experiences into the picture, and the lack of these is going to handicap significantly any attempt at ture understanding. Like in duscussing brutal rape, one can never trully understand its implications without being a victim of such horrible crime.
I recall being three and five years old, going to the kitchen in our large communal appartment, hearing the stories of the siege of Leningrad that those women had to tell. I still remember many of those stories, stories of hunger told in a matter-of-fact manner, of eating rats and carpenter glue and leather boots. That experience put those who went through it in a special camp and everyone else was an outsider.
And since most of us here lack that kind of experience, the movie maker has to resort to silly explosions and plastic guts in his attempt to make the point that simply needs to be whispered in the ear.
That is a pretty good review Victor,I'd go further and say when a talented director is given artistic freedom, the results are pretty impressive. Interestingly, there aren't that many acts of violence graphically depicted, but the results of that violence are.
The jerky, camera movement, muting of the sound etc. work very well to make you frightened- anticipating the horrors is as bad as witnessing them.
As I said- I'm not sure I'd like to see it again. There is one scene where a lot of people walked out of the cinema- it won't spoil it for you if I tell you it involved the death of an animal- not a human being. Funny you should mention "rape"- an unforgettable scene involving that subject as well, again you see the aftermath, not the act.
Remembering this film is almost like what dealing with repressed memories must be like !
This is the film which destroys any notion of heroism in war- there is only death and destruction, physical and spiritual.
Definitely not for the faint-hearted.
My local sources don't have it, but www.bestvideo.com does (what don't they have?) so I am getting mentally ready to part with my $17.Thanks for the great tip.
.
Hello Nick,If you think that the articles of the Geneva Convention did not apply to the US prior to 1949, then you are wrong.
If you think that I would bother to correct you if I didn't think it was important, then at least have the courtesy to check your facts.
The first "Geneva Convention for the Amelioration of the Condition of
the Wounded and Sick in Armed Forces in the Field" was signed by 12
countries. The international treaty, known as the Geneva Convention,
also guaranteed the neutrality of members of the Red Cross.The United States was accepted and granted accession in 1882.
Here is a link to The Avalon Project at Yale University
Of course they did. But do u really believe no violations occured during WW2?
If you think the US only supplied boyscouts as Marines and soldiers, I think you've seen too many Harrison Ford movies. Wake up!
***Of course they did. But do u really believe no violations occured during WW2?
If you think the US only supplied boyscouts as Marines and soldiers, I think you've seen too many Harrison Ford movies. Wake up!No boyscouts, you say? You are right, of course. And no one should condone any such behavior.
But for the true sense of proportion please review the Japanese atrocities in China and against the US servicemen. Sometimes it makes me wonder why all that fixation with SS and extermination camps when the Japanese have done things at least as horrible.
At least I don't recall any stories about the "killing competitions" between the German officers.
The really sad fact is how the Japanese tone down what they did in their history books.
I was stationed in Japan twice (two six month tours) while I was in the Marines, and now and then theree were dibates about the war. Most young Japanese actually believed it was the US that attacked Japan first and thus started the great Pacific war! This according to english language (but Japanese) newspapers who'd done survays among students.
Don't get me wrong, the Japanese are extremely nice and polite, I enjoyed very much my 12 months there, but it's a shame they are so deeply proud as people that they just cannot handle the bad parts of their history.
I guess a few years as a Jar-Head really doesn't help, nor living in a non english speaking country. But still I have no good excuse for my horrid english. Sorry folks.
How long have you lived in the US Vic?
.
"Luckily the Geneva convention did not exsist yet" was the statement you made.All I did was point out that the Geneva Convention did exist. If you want to change your point to "The Geneva Conventions may as well not have existed in the minds of those brave men who faced the most difficult circumstances during the war against the Japanese"- go right ahead.
Thank you, I am wide awake by the way, and as far as I know Harrison Ford has made only 1 WW2 action movie- "Force 10 from Navarone", but Hanover Street was set in WW2 England. You should have used Van Johson or John wayne or even Vic Morrow.
If you want to see a Pacific War movie explore the ambivalence which marines faced towards the Japanese, try "Hell to Eternity".
Its about the true story of a marine-"Gabby" Gabaldon who was brought up by a Japanese family in the US. The action takes place on Saipan, it's not a great film, but the hero wrestles with his conscience many times. After seeing his buddy savagely killed then hacked by a katana wielding Japanese officer- he goes on a rampage, taking no prisoners, even shooting unarmed Japanese in the back!
The he is taken to see Japanese civilians who are jumping off a cliff rather than surrendering. He is shocked, and for a moment sees his own mother as one of the civilians.
He changes. He goes out and single -handedly captures the Japanese general and convinces him to surrender his troops. He succeeds. The hundreds of remaining troops throw down their weapons. As the troops file by the general and Gabby, the general takes out his knife and ceremoniously disembowels himself, barely making a whimper he eventually falls to his knees as the beaten soldiers trudge past him towards the marines.
Oraaaah! Semper Fi! Please remember that Marines is always spelled with capital M!
all right all ready. What I meant to say was: The Geneva Conventions may as well not have existed in the minds of those brave men who faced the most difficult circumstances during the war against the Japanese.
I thought that was rather clear, but no...
You are right about Okinawa- imagine a 2.5 to 3 hour movie with Saving Private Ryan production quality set during that horrendous battle. It would make D Day look tame by comparison. I don't think there has been a definitive Pacific War film yet- Thin Red Line was too slow for the most part.Hoorah ..er Orrrah...wait, ooh ah! no..
john
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