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In Reply to: Re: American Tragedy? Indeed... posted by Victor Khomenko on May 21, 2001 at 08:25:38:
*** but then in the field of fine art what American thing is? America, being late to the party, could never match the finesse of the old world, that takes centuries to develop, so its unmatched avhievemnts lie elsewhere.Victor, I think I could go along with you regarding music and painting - the best Americans are a cut below history's best. However, in literature I believe there are some American works that can hold their own at the top levels. "Gatsby" would be one of my nominations - not just for the story but also for the beautiful writing. I doubt that a film will ever be able to capture the greatness of this book.
Follow Ups:
You are certainly right Rick when it comes to modern literature, where the American literature is unique enough to stand on its great own.In the field of movie art unfortunately it appears that the American movie makers used to enjoy early lead, only to let the Hollywood mentality to take over shortly after the WWII. At that time the Great Bifurcation took place, whereupon our guys here concentrated on making more and more obsenely ridiculous Cleopatra's, while overseas the gentle folks like De Sica and Bergman continued they endless study of the human nature.
This of course is somewhat simplystic and only covers the main trends, as there has been overlap on both sides.
When I was replying to your earlier post I started to think about my favorite films. Surely some of them must be American? Well... kind of, but not really. "Vertigo" is an American film made by a native of England. "2001" is a British film made by an American native. "Lawrence of Arabia?" Well, made with American financing but not really an 'American Film.' "M"? Nope. "Metropolis"? Nope. "Anatomy of a Murder"? Well, Preminger wasn't exactly from Iowa. Not that that's what's required for someone to be 'American.' Far from it. But you'd think that there would be a batch of truly great films (insights into human nature, with maybe even a message, cautionary or otherwise) made by American born filmakers financed by American money, produced in America. It really doesn't seem to be the case. We can ride along with 'Citizen Kane,' 'Patton,' and some Bogart film noir for only so long.
If you are going to move on the "born-in-America is THE Amercian and the ones who came here aren't" horse, it's not going to take you far.
I wonder if BAT is an American company and V.Khomenko is an American?:))
I would never argue that you have to be born in America to be 'American.' It's unsupportable. 9.999999999 percent of us (or our parents or their parents etc.) are from somewhere else. I was just pointing out that you'd think there would be more great stuff from the natives. Victor's earlier point was that it takes hundreds of years to develop a truly great culture and I'm agreeing with him.
1.I was just screwing around with ya.
2.This arguement is valid, BUT film these days is more and more universal, or is becoming such, like it or not. There are distinguishing characteristics, of course, but soon enough they will brew down to the subtitles, for the most part. Imho, it's not French Cinema or Mongolian Cinema as an institution, but a handful of visionary directors that make it. I certainly hope these(or coming) directors will always be making good films.
3.The fact that you like non-American cinema doesn't mean anything beyond that; certainly it doesn't mean that American films are worse than the other ones that you do like watching. :)))
Elder Victor isn't discovering any Americas when he talks about decline of Hollywood films after the war. I think that the best American films were made after WWII.
***Elder Victor isn't discovering any Americas when he talks about decline of Hollywood films after the war. I think that the best American films were made after WWII.Isn't there a contradiction between your two sentences?
But anyway, I love good films no matter where they come from. So help me with the list of the best American films made after the WWII - no teasing here.
And as far as having world movies come out of some homogeneous blob of matter, that is simply not true. It would not be possible for something like the "Mozart Brothers" or "Life as a Fatal STD" to be made here, not anymore than the Kurosawa's "Dreams" to be made in Germany.
So you line about French Cinema vs. Mongolian Cinema (shivers and cold down the spine....... ) may be funny but it is dead wrong. It shall remain wrong for the next few hundred years, I am afraid.
But returning to the serious subject, let's build a good American film list.
***Elder Victor isn't discovering any Americas when he talks about decline of Hollywood films after the war. I think that the best American films were made after WWII.
Isn't there a contradiction between your two sentences?
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Arrgh. Come on,Victor, drop the semantics:)))You know perfectly well what I was talking about.
What I meant to say was that indeed, Hollywood took some turns after the WWII, some of them right, some of them u-turns and some of them bad.
Now, my favorite post-WWII American films would be(before 1980s)
A Gentlemen's Agreement
North by Northwest
Chinatown
A Hatful Of Rain
The Hustler
The French Connection
Carmen Jones
The Godfather
The Young Lions
Some like it hot
Easy Rider
Pinky
Spartacus
One flew over the cuckoo's nest
The Taxi Driver
Dr.Strangelove
Three days of the Condor
The Graduate
Raging Bull
On The Waterfront
The Big Heat
Apocalypse Now
Midnight express
Young Frankenstein
Jaws
All The King's Men
Close encounters of the third kind
All That Jazz
Human desire
To kill the mockingbird
and that film with Charleton Heston where he plays a Mexican.These are just the ones that came to my mind while I was typing. I'm sure there are more.
All the other stuff about my being wrong for the next 100 years - I wish you all the health in the world, o sagacious Solomon. :)
...ever so gently slide the "Paths of Glory" in place of Spartacus?Anyway, intersting. I am actually scanning it for holes I need to plug im my education.
On the ones I know I agree with you about 60% - I would never consider the "Condor" anything but another piece of kaka from Redford-the-kaka-man.
And I am eternally grateful to you that there was no Stalag 17 on your list...
I haven't seen the Paths of Glory...but I like Spartacus.
Wow, Victor, don't get too worked up about the caca-man. I liked the Condor, saw it perhaps 3 times since I saw it first when I was about 12 or 13, still like it.
He is an OK guy, Redford. Why dislike him so much? It's the horse film, isn't it? Or his political affiliations maybe? There's got to be something beside the acting...
Stalag 17:))))Time to go home now.
You are lucky man, Dmitry, watching Paths of Glory for the first time - you will not forget it. Simply put - one of five best films ever made, and you know - I don't drop that sort of claims idly.Redford - Mr. Hollywood. A facade man, a Potemkin village, with no substance. I don't think is was the horse movie, I think my dislike of him started with the first his film that I saw - the Bruebaker. That was right as I came here, and I thought highly of American films. Bruebaker struck me as something utterly fake, although it toom me several years to understand what it was.
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