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In Reply to: Re: American Tragedy? Indeed... posted by Dmitry on May 21, 2001 at 16:47:12:
***Strange...I guess it's something on a more personal level than an objective point of view about a movieIsn't that ALWAYS the case with art? We are not trying to convert each others, we simply expressed why you and I felt the ways you and I felt.
But I am sure you remember the old joke: "Vasilii Ivanovich, look how dirty your neck is, it is evwen dirtier than mine!" "Of course, Pet'ka, because I am older than you..."
...so I can always claim some life experience superiority.
Follow Ups:
***Strange...I guess it's something on a more personal level than an objective point of view about a movie
Isn't that ALWAYS the case with art?
------------------------------------
You know, I think the correct answer would be yes and no. Always is such an encompassing word...
After all, even if you don't like films of Chaplin, Tarkovsky or Godard, for example, you can still see their merits. That's why I was/am still thinking of your poshlost' comment. I do know a few films I would call poshlyi(for our non-Russian speaking audience - vulgar in an all-inclusive sense of the word, not just in it's sexual disguise; on a more monumental level, I guess), but I'm sorry, I don't see it in American Beauty.
I will accept your age superiority, but like I told you in NY - give it time, I'll be there too:)) Not that I am rushing it...
***After all, even if you don't like films of Chaplin, Tarkovsky or Godard, for example, you can still see their merits.There is definitely some room for that. I could supply many personal examples (Brahms, Rockwell, etc). But all this still stops at some point - such acceptance is NOT unlimited.
For instance, I would not have any works by Rockwell or Parish anywhere near me, but I can understand his attractiveness to some. But take that snow shovel... the one that used to be on display in Philadelphia Museum of art. It was your average Home Depot model, broken in two. One half suspended on a fishing line from the ceiling.
It is in instances like that one that I say - no more, stop.
***I will accept your age superiority, but like I told you in NY - give it time, I'll be there too:)) Not that I am rushing it...
But you remember that old philosophy proof of why the rabbit shall never overtake the turtle? By the time the rabbit gets to where the turtle is now, it will be already gone. And when he gets to where it is later, it is gone from there too...
So even when you catch up with me I shall remain few years older... that is so nice to know.
Not to be a pest, but "poshlost'" is not really vulgarity, it is far more complicated and subtle. The traditional example of elefants on top of a piano is not vulgar. If you have not read it I am sure you will find Nabokov's explanation wonderfully engaging.
Why did you stray away from the films? I purposefully left the conversation within the film boundary...Or you think it'll be easier for the young rabbit to understand what the wise turtle says if he shows the rabbit some pictures and a halved shovel?:)))""So even when you catch up with me I shall remain few years older... that is so nice to know."'
Well, like I said - all the health to you, Victor. Before the mind starts slipping(or clipping), that is. That's worse than anything. I've seen that happen to some people I'd give my right hand to.
Really.
***Why did you stray away from the films? I purposefully left the conversation within the film boundary...Or you think it'll be easier for the young rabbit to understand what the wise turtle says if he shows the rabbit some pictures and a halved shovel?:)))He-he-he, I have here some posters prepared...
I love jumping between my favorite subjects. Be thankful I didn't bring up the virtues of the model 1811 Blucher sword vs. the British 1796 Infantry Officer's one.
But going back to the movies, there is line there too. To me, for instance, Spielberg is beyond that line, he is just a highly professional liar. I would much rather watch Cheech and Chong all day long than his white-wash brain-wash garbage. Oliver Stone is another one I have with passion. And Tarrantino... he contributed a lot to this coutnry's moral decay.
And mention Pasolini to my wife and you go without a dinner.
***Well, like I said - all the health to you, Victor. Before the mind starts slipping(or clipping), that is. That's worse than anything. I've seen that happen to some people I'd give my right hand to.
Really.That's one tough call. Is a sharp mind in a completely paralized body any better?
Though I don't exactly understand "poshlyi", I thought much of American Beauty vulgar- coarse and unrefined- but isn't that the point ie exactly how much "beauty" is there in a modern suburban environment?I'd go a bit further- the "resolution" of the film with a homicide, especially a shooting, is vulgar. The portrayal of women in the film was vulgar. The portrayal of a suburban man's fears- the unfaithful wife- the detached children- the lack of fulfilment in work-the psycho neighbour, were all vulgar.
So there was some nice photography- ok, for some mainstream audiences this may have been wonderful, but if I ever had an epiphany and gave up work- and the best I could come up with was to regain my youth, lust after some girl and buy a muscle car- I'd say that was vulgar.
You see, John, some words are hard to translate into other languages. For example, Japanese have a word for a state of mind, while watching the storks come back after a long winter. One word.
Anyway, if we leave vulgar as a kin of poshlost'(i.e. profane, crude,tactless, gross, cheap, cliche, vile, vane, disgustingly crass,etc - you get the idea), let's play.
I will quote you - "I'd go a bit further- the "resolution" of the film with a homicide, especially a shooting, is vulgar. The portrayal of women in the film was vulgar. The portrayal of a suburban man's fears- the unfaithful wife- the detached children- the lack of fulfilment in work-the psycho neighbour, were all vulgar."
This is just what we need - vulgar, as in a FARCE, a FABLIEU perhaps. that's exactly how I saw the film. I think all the things you mentioned were done on purpose, imho. That is why it may elicit some unpleasant reactions from folks, notwithstanding THE Academy which licked the film's boots without realizing that they were covered with shit.""and the best I could come up with was to regain my youth, lust after some girl and buy a muscle car- I'd say that was vulgar.""
Yes it was. Of course!!! And it was meant to be. No mercy for the killed protagonist, no mercy for the wife, it all goes to the vulgar hell.
I really don't know how else to explain this. I hope you understand what I am saying. Read the thread and look at your vision of the film in a different light.
Yes, it was a farce-"notwithstanding THE Academy which licked the film's boots
without realizing that they were covered with shit."Brilliant ! Quite the best summation of the film and The Academy- you should write reviews!
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