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the remains of the day

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late

In Reply to: You're the one burning rubber to get away from your absurd assertions. posted by john dem on December 01, 2001 at 13:56:17:

Hi,
at the end of it, what remains is that you know painfully little about Star Trek; and even less of scifi. In most circles that is called ignorance. My favorite TNG episode puts Data on trial to determine if he is property of Star Fleet. I think it's Rodenberry's finest effort by far; and the moment of epiphany gives me chills every damn time. I have written here about that episode a number of times. It is what i call a meta-intersection; issues of law, morality, religion, and individuality come crashing together in a contest of conflicting priorities. The moment that goves me chills is when Guinan ( who is, after all black)says to the Captain there could be thousands, millions of Datas doing the work that was too dangerous or boring for humans. The Captain replies, 'Guinan, you're talking about slavery, that is what this is really all about, isn't it'. One subject that is a perennial, is how do you talk to an alien. There has even been a little scientific work done in this direction, but not much. While ST usually dodges the problem; one episode took the theme. That is my 2nd favorite episode, where 2 races, utterly alien, struggle to find a way to communicate. "Shaka, when the walls fell". Another TNG episode starts with an archelogical artifiact. It looks like the Russian toy that is a series of identical hollow dolls each smaller than the last, and each fits inside the larger. In the show, the artifact symbolises the idea that each person has several people, personalities perhaps, inside them. The show then goes on to cleverly illustrate the idea. There have been a few hundred Trek episodes, the really good ones can be counted without running out of fingers. But for me, getting there is half the fun. I enjoy seeing things come to pass; on the rare occasion they do. What you call cell phones, Star Trek called Communicators.
Another scifi perennial is tv on the wall; to tell the truth, I had thought I wouldn't see that one. Btw, my Mother was a Star Trek fan, held an engineering degree, was an avid amateur astronomer, was a school teacher of mathematics, a chess club coach, and a reader of Scientific American.

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Re: the remains of the day - Bruce from DC 06:40:19 12/03/01 (1)
Still think this comes under the heading of what, I believe in serious literary circles was called an exemplum which translates loosely as "moral tale."
In any event, we are talking value judgments here and; whether one likes it or not -- the orginal ST and NG had, on occasion a seriousness of purpose beyond the usual TV fare. Whether you like the embodiment of the purpose, the vehicle chosen for it, etc. or whether it succeeds is another matter.
A TV audience is quite unlikely to read Dostoevsky for fun. In fact, most readers are quite unlikely to read Dostoevsky for fun.
That seems to be the essence of JD's point.
Next big discovery please!! I can hardly wait for another revelation of such blinding insight.
JD is offended that 'Phlouder makes claims for Sci-fi as a serious literary genre.
Ok.
None of us knows whether sic-fi will make it into the canon or not. Most of it is too new; and we will not live long enough for the filter of time to do its work.
But I can mention some "serioius work" that offends me as being rather empty behind a fabric of wordplay, literary allusions and insider jokes:
Anybody remember "Trout Fishing in America" by Richard Brautigan; "The Universal Baseball Club" by Robert Coover?
Then there are the Great Literary Works that are virtually incomprehensible. Examples: "Finnegan's Wake" by James Joyce and a number of lesser imitators, e.g. "Gravity's Rainbow" by Thomas Pynchon. (I did not attempt the former and failed to get through the latter.)
And finally, there is everything written by John Updike, a literary man who has made a career of verbalizing his ruminations on sex and aging in a nice package that Barnard English majors can avoid feeling guilty about reading. "Rabbit Run" was an interesting, orginal work. Soon, JU figured out that he couldn't write anything else; but as any Hollywood mogul can tell you, there is a market for sequels to hits. So JU has been writing sequels to "RR" ever since.
The last really vital serious American author that I know of who's written a significant body of work is Saul Bellow.
The rest of it is dessicated, academic stuff, written by people who wish they were poets and whose principal object seems to be a flashy display of their erudition.
Not surprisingly, nobody reads it.
BTW, Patrick Stewart said performing "Shaka when the walls fall" was a completely bizarre experience. I remember seeing that one; it was "different" to say the least. I'm afraid it appeared to me to be an incomprehensible play about incomprehensibility. There are many, many works about incomprehension, even among people who speak the same language -- viz., "Romeo and Juliet" -- that, I think, make the point better. However, the idea of taking a shot at that theme on TV is worth a point or two, at least.
You guys be nice to each other, you hear!!
- good post, minor quibble(s) - late 07:27:57 12/07/01 (0)
  Hi Bruce,
  As a card carrying Moral Relativist (or whatever double talk the neocons are using these days)....I don't worry too much about the Canon. No doubt Romeo + Juliet is great stuff; but i think we have a need to wonder. I mean. how the heck would you communicate with an alien? Not a problem we have to face anytime soon I would imagine; but it's a fascinating problem. Some schiolars think that a race that is sufficiently different from us would be impossible to communicate with. That gold plaque we sent out of the solar system used a pictorial system in the hopes an laine would understand the pictures. But what if they don't see quite the way we do? Science Fiction is often a speculation on the effects of technology; and winds up becoming dated after a while. Kirk's Communicator becomes your cellphone. So we can forget about posterity, by and large.
  Loved the line about 'dessicated, academic stuff'. I am not surprised you and Stewart had trouble with that one. it's real scifi.
  As was pointed out in the story, a translator looks for points of reference. With a real alien language; that could be impossible. It is almost certainly difficult, and likely to take years
  in the best of circumstances. With the race in that episode, they used language in an interesting way; they only spoke in metaphor. I have no idea how you could develop a technological civilisation that way; but that is the premise. So there is no way to do a simple I am John you are....The other guy wouldn't understand a subject/object sentence.
  "Timba, at rest"
Enter late, defender of the punyverse. - john dem 19:42:47 12/01/01 (5)
"at the end of it, what remains is that you know painfully little about Star Trek; and even less of scifi"
You're guessing, or are you pretending to be Q and added mind- reading to your many obvious talents ?
"My favorite TNG episode blah blah blah...and the moment of epiphany gives me chills...blah blah blah.... law, morality, religion, and ....blah blah blah says to the Captain there could be thousands,blah blah blah blah, you're talking about slavery,blah bla blah."
That's right Late, in Star Trek you will find the deepest questions for mankind, so eloquently expressed and communicated to the viewer that its epiphanous nature is unavoidable.
"There have been a few hundred Trek episodes, the really good ones can be counted without running out of fingers".
I agree with you. Star Trek fans can often be recognized by the fact that they use their fingers for counting.
"What you call cell phones, Star Trek called Communicators"
No shit, Sherlock. Did The Federation go back in time and give this technology to Al Gross when he invented the walkie- talkie in 1938 ?
"Btw, my Mother was a Star Trek fan, held an engineering degree, was an avid amateur astronomer, was a school teacher of mathematics, a chess club coach, and a reader of Scientific American."
I'm sure she is very nice, and probably thinks Star Trek is a lot of fun- with which I would have no argument.
- intuitively obvious to the casual observer - late 21:51:33 12/01/01 (4)
  Hi,
  reduced to it's essence, your argument says Star trek can be fun; but no more. It cannot inspire, educate, or create wonder. As we have been pointing out, it can,has, and does. You lose.
  - Yes, it is obvious. - john dem 23:09:50 12/01/01 (3)
    "It cannot inspire, educate, or create wonder"
    Perhaps in children, though you might be wise to first give them the ability to experience wonderment in the universe outside of TV.
    "You lose."
    Spoken like a true 6 year old, but you forgot the obligatory "Na- Na, Na-Na-Naaaaaaa"
    - naught, plus naught, equals... - late 07:35:17 12/02/01 (2)
      Hi,
      so now I have the intellectual maturity of a child. I provided a counterexample; and you provide this. Let you in on a secret....as a school bus driver; I get insulted fairly regularly. Over the years, something obvious finally occurred to me. When someone offers an insult; they are usually talking about themselves; or at least something they fear may be true.
      - Yawn...it must be late. - john dem 13:58:05 12/02/01 (1)
        
        In Reply to: naught, plus naught, equals... posted by late on December 02, 2001 at 07:35:17:
        
        "so now I have the intellectual maturity of a child."
        No,I suspect you've had it for some time.
        "Let you in on a secret....as a school bus driver;(Do you say "Engage!" when you start 'er up ?- just trying to get back on topic) I get insulted ......"
        If the kids are insulting you, let me let you in on some common knowledge: it's not possible to feel offense or be somehow damaged by the mere words of children, unless there's another meaning to the word "insult" you've invented. Maybe the kids just don't like you.
        If there's adults insulting you, maybe they don't like you either.
        "......fairly regularly."
        No surprises there.
        "When someone offers an insult; they are usually talking about themselves; or at least something they fear may be true."
        IKYABWAI doesn't work outside of a school bus, Late.
        (Do you have a "I stop for Borg Cubes" sticker on the back of the bus ?)
        
        Don't like losing, do you? --nt-- - late 16:16:35 12/02/01 (0)
        
        In Reply to: Yawn...it must be late. posted by john dem on December 02, 2001 at 13:58:05:
        
        -

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