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In Reply to: Did you really need to turn your critique... posted by Audiophilander on February 01, 2002 at 06:52:24:
I didn't see the show (we don't get Bravo since we moved :<),
but my read on it was that Alda appeared to be an:"Intelligent Guy, Gifted Actor,"
Then:
"So impressed with self and own idealism that he imagines that most who
like iconoclastic Hawkeye would automatically share Alda's utopian
ideals - this seems to be a common Lefty viewpoint, and
therefore 'Left Coast' is apt."However, the real thrust here is self-absorbed actors.
If Heston had been asked why people identified strongly with Ben Hur, and he
had said "because of my support for 2nd Amendment Rights", the same
criticism would apply - except the label woudn't be Left Coast.Perhaps Right Wing or Arch Conservative,
or Fascist (in the 60's anarcho-appropriation).
Follow Ups:
Heston's activity with NRA and the conservative movement is constantly mentioned, and I have no problem with that whatsoever. It completes the actor's personality sketch.So I am still rather annoyed by AuPh's insistance that he has right to mandate what side of actor's personality can or can not be covered here. I think that is simply improper and he should just read or ignore posts or posters he finds annoying to him.
As I said before, anything having to do with movie personalities is fair game for discussion - in my view, which I am not seeking to impose on anyone. If the discussion of Heston's political views took ten pages then I would say - enough already, but to jump like AuPh did at the small mention of Alda's silly statement was completely out of place.
So I don't see your point about Heston changing anything.
Now, this is a privately owned forum, and the owners can certainly step in and enforce the rules any way they see fit, but lacking that step I would say - just keep going: filmographies, divorces, extramarital affairs, education, background, political affiliations, families, commercial activities - all are of interest and can be covered.
... of using an actor's support for a cause as a thinly veiled excuse to turn the forum into a political soapbox.What was stated about Alda didn't present his affiliation with certain causes in a fair and impartial manner, but rather condemned him to the point of ridicule for supporting womens' rights (i.e., the Equal Rights Amendment). The fact that Mr. Alda felt that his support of the Amendment had a great deal to do with his popularity during the run of M*A*S*H was simply his belief. Why did Mike choose to make an issue out of it, demeaning the actor for responding honestly to a question asked during an interview? His response had nothing to do with the actor or his talent, but rather Mike's own political perspective. How does that fit in with a discussion of the arts?
Answer that, if you can.
Audiophilander
***Answer that, if you can.Did already. Several times. What - are you trying to bore me to death by repeating the same whine again and again and again? I really don't care what you say about other people's posts or mine. But I find your attemps at silencing people arrogant. You are not the boss here, as far as I know.
Boy, I am getting out of this "discussion".
... without using your points as a podium from which to preach off topic political philosophies.It's difficult gauging Mr. Alda's intent in the interview, but I would agree that when actors rely upon their name recognition solely for political purpose they open themselves up to criticism. My take on Alan Alda is that he may have simply been responding in an honest fashion to a question about his popularity in the role of Hawkeye. IMHO, there's absolutely nothing wrong with his belief that taking a position on certain hot-button political issues coincided with an upsurge in his popularity on the program. I don't have a problem with that, and for all we know it might very well be the case, dependent upon the fan mail he received at the time.
Interestingly, your mention of Charltan Heston is an excellent example of an actor employing name recognition to promote his political views. Although I tend to think his "Moses" role in The Ten Commandments is the one that excites folks on the right. My biggest problem with any polemic take on Alda has to do with taking a simple comment made in an interview and exploiting it with sound bites about the "left-coast, Dumb actors" which are directed more at the Liberal viewpoint than as an objective criticism of the actor's statements.
Since the author of that original controversial post got the last word at the bottom of this thread (i.e., actually, four of 'em: "See...I told you!"), he should be rather pleased.
Cheers,
Audiophilander
***My biggest problem with any polemic take on Alda has to do with taking a simple comment made in an interview and exploiting it with sound bites about the "left-coast, Dumb actors" which are directed more at the Liberal viewpoint than as an objective criticism of the actor's statements.I would be more inclined to think that it offended you because it demonstrated the stupidity of most of the Hollywood left. On which there are tons of evidence everywhere.
If you had any reason to doubt the validity of Alda's statemnt analysis, you could have just provided some evidence, but instead you simply hysterically jumped in trying to squash any discussion of "left-cost Dumb actors" of which there are many, many, many, as we all know.
If you deny the simple fact that that left ideology has been coloring the American movie industry in more than one way, then you should simply take closer look and the films produced in the last twenty years or so.
I think to be fair, if the left wing actors would only stop shoving their agendas into our faces, then we all would most likely forget about their immature points of view and happily moved on, but for as long as the larger and larger portion of drek produced by Hollywood in addition to being sloppy is also driven by agendas, it is THEY who set the tone of the discussion.
How would you consider all those idiotic ribbons at the ceremonies? Apparently that is OK with you. Because you agree with those views? Or have you once spoken for them to stop that display? If it is OK for them to stick it to us, it is OK for us to ridicule them for doing so.
Otherwise you would like to have your cake and eat it too. You want to applaud the "masterpieces" like T&L and Philadelphia, but keep the truth hidden, to pretend that those are the products of purely artistic inclinations and not some political agenda of today.
Sorry, no go.
> > > "I would be more inclined toto think that it offended you because it demonstrated the stupidity of most of the Hollywood left." < < <I was offended by the politicizing of a non-political forum with an
off-topic comment against Liberals in general; Mike's comment went beyond a critical examination of the actor or the actor's Liberal beliefs to insult everyone with a Liberal viewpoint. People like you further complicate the matter by throwing fuel on the fire. Your insinuation about the "Hollywood left" being stupid is a prime example. If I said that Chatlton Heston was "stupid" because he reflected the narrow-minded views of the Hollywood "wrong"-wingers I'm sure that folks like you would get on my case about dragging politics into the film forum. The "H" word is what comes to mind, and I'm not refering to Hollywood! ;^)> > > "If you had any reason to doubt the validity of Alda's statemnt analysis, you could have provided some evidence, but instead you simply hysterically jumped in trying to squash any discussion of 'left-coast Dumb actors' of which there are many, many, many, as we all know." < < <
Two points:
First of all, the burdon of proof of Alda's intent to promote a political agenda in the interview on Inside the Actor's Studio" rested with Mike who simply used his interpretation of events to vent his political views on this forum. If his intent was to convince myself and others of Alda's intent to turn Inside the Actor's Studio into a platform for Liberal political views, Mike failed to convince me.
Secondly, THAT TYPE OF DISCUSSION HAS NO PLACE IN THIS FORUM as I've stated repeatedly, but you apparently refuse to acknowledge this.
> > > "If you deny the simple fact that that left ideology has been coloring the American movie industry in more than one way, then you should simply take a closer look and the films produced in the last twenty years or so." < < <
How? Left-wing movie plots? Which one's? Provide examples! Perhaps you're impressions are the result of not seeing as much right-wing propaganda coming out of Hollywood as used to permiate the silver screen! FYI, I recall more right-wing preachiness in the film industry prior to 1975; there was very little emphasis on progressive social issues prior to that time with the possible exception of a few
highly regarded counter-culture movies and a slew of pop-culture films that are hopelessly dated. Of course, many of the gung-ho Hollywood war flicks from the 50's & 60's are hopelessly dated as are the "red-scare" propaganda films of that era; these tended to pander to the narrow world-view of the Conservative right. To make a long story short, yes, I do deny that the left ideology has been coloring the American movie industry; if anything the movies themselves seem
pretty balanced overall and much more reflective of real life. Insrad of John Wayne in the abysmal "Green Berets", we have Tom Hanks in "Saving Private Ryan" ....of course there'll always be "Pearl Harbor" for those who prefer a lightweight Conservative Hollywoodized viewpoint. ;^D> > > "I think to be fair, if the left wing actors would only stop shoving their agendas into our faces, then we all would most likely forget about their immature points of view and happily moved on, ..." < < <
This is typical of the right-wing prattle which has no place on this forum! What are you trying to say here, dude? That the movies aren't reflecting YOUR OWN agenda enough? That the actors don't have a right to express their opinions publicly? The key comment you made here is about "...immature points of view..." which is just another example of
the wrong-headed polemic rhetoric which right-wingers try to push down everyone's throat. So, explain to us Victor, how does this comment belong on a board about films and DVDs???> > > "How would you consider all those idiotic ribbons at the ceremonies? Apparently that is OK with you. Because you agree with those views? Or have you spoken for them to stop that display? If it is okay for them to stick it to us, it is OK for us to ridicule them for doing so." < < <
Fair questions. I consider ribbons as a popular means of expressing solidarity for causes, not all of which are Liberal causes by the way, and a reflection of compassion. Are you suggesting that they shouldn't wear them? Are you in support of a universal ban on ribbons which often reflect patriotic values or do you just want to ban them for actors who speak out publicly for Liberal causes?
> > > "You want to applaud the "masterpieces" like T&L and Philadelphia, but keep the truth hidden, to pretend that those are the products of purely artistic inclinations and not some political agenda of today." < < <
WOW! Talk about political rhetoric! I never said that Thelma and Louise was a masterpiece, nor did I say it was without an agenda, although not necessarily as strong a political one as you're implying. Philadelphia was a film I don't recall discussing in our earlier posts, but since you've chosen to bring it up, how do you perceive it as a politically leftist movie? I think that you're lost in the woods finding fault with the premise of Philadelphia and I suggest you consult some of your Log Cabin Republican buddies before getting stuck out there permanently!
Cheers,
Audiophilander
***If I said that Chatlton Heston was "stupid" because he reflected the narrow-minded views of the Hollywood "wrong"-wingers I'm sure that folks like you would get on my case about dragging politics into the film forum.You are simply starting to invent the facts now. Show me where I got on your case for discussing Heston, or just drop that silly presumptive tone. That H word is all yours.
***Two points:
***First of all, the burdon of proof of Alda's intent to promote a political agenda in the interview on Inside the Actor's Studio" rested with Mike who simply used his interpretation of events to vent his political views on this forum. If his intent was to convince myself and others of Alda's intent to turn Inside the Actor's Studio into a platform for Liberal political views, Mike failed to convince me.
First - I think it would be fair to request the abstanance on both sides, if the said actors only stopped to shove their idiotic agendas in our faces.
As we all know - they can't control themselves, they wear it one every sleeve of their Gucci cloth. So there, for as long as they do it, we have the right to include that in our discussion.
***Secondly, THAT TYPE OF DISCUSSION HAS NO PLACE IN THIS FORUM as I've stated repeatedly, but you apparently refuse to acknowledge this.
I already stated that this is not your right to dictate to the rest of inhabitants what they are allowed to say. When and if you are appointed a moderator then we shall start listening... or running away. Until then - I see no reason to listen to your demands.
***How? Left-wing movie plots? Which one's?
I provided you with two, and could dump many more, but see no reason.
And as I stated before, all comments about films and their makers belong here, I think. But this is getting really boring. You are not getting anywhere with your childish demands and you are getting angrier. If you really feel that offended, then go to the moderators, solicit their opinion and if they agree with you, then as I said, we shall make our decisions. Until then - keep complaining if you want.
Regarding the ribbons - you seem to be missing my point entirely. Wear them any place you want, on any part of yoru body, that is perfectly fine with me.
BUT... then shut up and don't get upset when people discuss your ribbons.
You make statement - listen to the reaction. But that notion is completely alien to the liberals.
However - unlike you I am not demanding that anyone stays away from some discussion simply because I may not like the subject or the direction.
***WOW! Talk about political rhetoric! I never said that Thelma and Louise was a masterpiece, nor did I say it was without an agenda, although not necessarily as strong a political one as you're implying. Philadelphia was a film I don't recall discussing in our earlier posts, but since you've chosen to bring it up, how do you perceive it as a politically leftist movie? I think that you're lost in the woods finding fault with the premise of Philadelphia and I suggest you consult some of your Log Cabin Republican buddies before getting stuck out there permanently!
I think you are refusing to think while reading. I really don't care whether you discuss their agendas - do it all you want. You yourself brought the T&L plot up as something of a social value - did I request you stopped talking about it?
But your tone is getting sillier and more capricious. Why don't you simply just read the posts that don't offend you, and let the others say and listen to other things? As it is now you are displaying the perfect case of New Wave Liberal McCarthyism.
Just teasin'!My statement: *** "If I said that Charlton Heston was "stupid" because he reflected the narrow-minded views of the Hollywood "wrong"-wingers I'm sure that folks like you would get on my case about dragging politics into the film forum." ***
Your response: > > > "You are simply starting to invent the facts now. Show me where I got on your case for discussing Heston, or simply drop the silly presumptive tone. That H word is all yours." < < <
My first comment was an obvious speculation (i.e., as exemplified by my use of the word "If"), but not without just cause as those of us with a more Liberal perspective are often asked to take our views "Outside" the moment any controversy developes on one of the linked AA boards. Those with a more Conservative bent can get away with spewing anti-Liberal venom because they feel comfortable in the belief that they're preaching to the choir.
For you to say "Show me where I..." when I stated "folks like you..." (i.e., indicating like-minded people; not you in particular) is a bit disingenuous on your part unless you really didn't understand the context of my message.
The next two points we differed on had to do with actor's who speak out publicly on issues (i.e., "wear it on every sleeve of their Gucci cloth" as you put it) and my contention that the political debate has no place in this forum. My response to the former is that actors are entiled to be spokesmen for whatever cause they choose (i.e., even hammy has-beens like Charlton Heston) as an aspect of their private lives, and it shouldn't reflect either negatively or positively on their careers, their abilities to perform various roles and the profession itself.
The second point was simply my restating the opinion that contentuous political debate doesn't really belong in this forum even when the debate rises out of a thinly veiled reference to an actor's comments in an interview. Obviously you differ with that opinion, as you are entitled to do, but the other stuff about my making "demands" is simply unnecessary hyperbole. You need to learn the difference between a request and a demand.
I stated: *** "How? Left-wing movie plots? Which ones?" ***
Your response: > > > "I provided two, and could dump many more, but see no reason." < < <
Obviously, we see these plots entirely differently. I'm actually quite shocked that you view "Philadelphia" as a Liberal movie plot. If that's the case, then so much for "compassionate Conservatism", right? What provided you with the perspective of the film having a pro-Liberal point-of-view? The fact that the Tom Hanks character developed AIDS and was then discriminated against by the law firm which employed him? The fact that it even dealt with the subject of AIDS and homosexuality? The fact that it concluded with the little guy beating a system that was heavily weighted against him?
You see, I didn't get the impression that the film promoted alternative lifestyles or preached left-wing propaganda. Of course, it's been awhile since I last saw the movie (i.e., having viewed it only when it was in theaters), but my impression was that the film didn't carry an obvious Liberal message. So, perhaps you'll enlighten us as to how this "Philadelphia" is an example of a left-wing movie plot.
I won't pursue another discussion of T&L because you obviously have a problem with it's depiction of women rebeling against authority. Messages aside, I don't think this film was ever intended as high art. I'll give you this: if "Thelma and Louise" is viewed as a feminist assault on male supremacy in our society, rather than as a violent albeit groundbreaking farce with an anti-abuse message, it could be interpretted as having a Liberal bent.
> > > "Regarding the ribbons - you seem to be missing the point entirely. Wear them any place you want, on any part of yoru body, that is perfectly fine with me." < < <
I don't especially care for ribbons (i.e., it's a bit overdone and risks becoming cliche`), but I respect other's rights to wear them without contempt. I detest the idea of making the wearing of ribbons a personal issue and a cause celebe` for denouncing actors who are merely expressing compassion for others and solidarity for their causes. Again, I say it's a personal issue, one of choice, and not a suitable subject for ridicule except perhaps from the lowest form of anti-intellectual hate monger. Note: So we're crystal clear on this point, that assessment may or may not apply to you; only YOU would know that.
> > > "I think you are refusing to think while reading. I don't really care whether you discuss their agendas - do it all you want. You yourself brought the T&L plot up as something of social value - did I request you stopped talking about it?" < < <
Talk about twisting the facts. As I recall, you pretty much dropped out of the discussion in the original thread, which in effect ended debate since you were the film's harshest critic. As for the politics involved, you are only making my point about what SHOULD BE and what SHOULDN'T BE fair game for discussions on this board. Politics in the context of a film, studio agenda, or even an actor who is portraying his own beliefs through his film and television work is gristle for the talk mill, AFAIC (i.e., as long as the remarks aren't stated in such a way as to insult the personal politics of other inmates). However, once you cross the line into displaying contempt for an actor's personal views or how he conducts his/her private life, you get into tabloid country and, worse yet, risk offending the personally held beliefs of other inmates. I reiterate, isn't that what Outside is for?
> > > "But your tone is getting sillier and more capricious. Why don't you simply just read the posts that don't offend you, and let others say and listen to other things." < < <
The simple reason is that Mike made the issue personal by showing contempt for the actor's beliefs rather than just stating that Mr. Alda's political views shouldn't have been expressed on Inside the Actor's Studio. In other words, it wasn't really about Alan Alda's political views, it was about Mike's political views. That's not what this forum is intended for, now is it?
Respectfully,
Audiophilander
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