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Re: Why don't you listen to both? (nt)

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In Reply to: Why don't you listen to both? (nt) posted by Rich on August 12, 2002 at 18:08:16:

I will definatley do that. I am just curious as to what the advantages and disadvantes are to each method.

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Re: Why don't you listen to both? (nt) - CD 07:38:33 08/15/02 (0)
Here's my take on it;
You have satellites that will extend down to about 70-80 Hz for your speakers. If you use the low level input and set the speakers to small on your Denon with a cutoff of 80 or 90 Hz, all the info below 80 Hz (which your speakers cannot reproduce anyway) will be sent to the sub. This will be the case for music and movies. The movies will also send the LFE (low freq. effects), or the ' .1 ' channel info to the sub as well.
Here is when you would want to use the high inputs - When you have main speakers that are capable of going down well below your receivers built in cutoff (usually 80-100Hz), you will want to use the sub to exted their range without overlapping (which will cause 'bass boom'). This is especially desirable with music. Using the high level inputs will give your sub the same info as the mains are getting, and you then set the high level sub cutoff to somewhere around where your mains drop off (lets say 35Hz). The problem with this scenario is that you will now lose the LFE or .1 channel info for movies (or multichannel audio) because it is not hooked up. And if you use the low level input with large mains, the low level inputs usually bypass the subwoofers cutoff control, meaning you will get bass boom from overlapping frequency output of your sub and mains.
Interestingly, there are a few companies that make models that let you use both high and low level inputs together - the low level bypassing the subs cutoff. IMO, this is key for those who have large main speakers. It gives you the ability to use the high level inputs and set your sub cutoff to assist and not overlap your mains (set to large for full freq. range) while at the same time giving the ability for the sub to get all the LFE info as well as the remaining bass for all other speakers (center, rears) that are set to small in the receiver. This is the best of both worlds. If the sub cutoff had been designed to be inline for the low level in addition to the high level inputs in this case, then you would be assisting your mains by setting the cutoff for 35Hz, but then you would be missing some of the LFE info and whatever remaining bass was being sent from other 'small' speakers. In other words, anything between the 80 Hz cutoff of the receiver and the 35Hz you set the sub cutoff to.
I fear I have rambled here. Hope I didn't confuse.
At any rate, for your application I think you'll find the best sound by using the low level input and setting your speakers all to small.
Chris
The only thing that matters is how it sounds (nt) - Rich 19:22:47 08/12/02 (7)
- Re: The only thing that matters is how it sounds - CD 08:38:15 08/15/02 (6)
  In his case, he will not want to lose the .1 effects and with satellites he has low risk bass boom or loss of frequency segment , so IMO low level input will be the best choice and likely sound best.
  Chris
  - Re: The only thing that matters is how it sounds - KM 13:36:54 08/20/02 (5)
    CD,
    I own a Rel Storm III and I set up both high and low level connections. Since 2 channel stereo CD's and 2 Channel SACD'd have no LFE or .1 information then my system sends all bass info to the mains, since they are set to large, and the sub picks up at 25hz and below (not accounting for the slope and roll off of the sub and the mains). The sub will start to kick in somewhere in the 30's right as the mains start to roll off also somewhere in the 30's. Even though my mains are rated down to 20hz, I am sure they roll off way before 20hz.
    During DVD playback the sub not only supports the mains as in CD playback above, but gets all the info for the LFE channel as well. This allows for support of my mains below their rolloff and the playing of all the LFE information that the director intended for the subwoofer.
    CD, you had mentioned the idea of a "boomy" response by the overlapping of the sub with the mains in your first post. How can this occur in my set up when the LFE channel, right and left main channels are all seperate discrete information independant of each other?
    KM
    - Re: The only thing that matters is how it sounds - CD 06:20:38 08/21/02 (4)
      "CD, you had mentioned the idea of a "boomy" response by the overlapping of the sub with the mains in your first post. How can this occur in my set up when the LFE channel, right and left main channels are all seperate discrete information independant of each other?"
      Exactly my point - with the REL subs (set up properly) it won't suffer bass boom. The high level inputs can be set to blend with your mains - no 'extra' or overloaded output/info at any frequency from the mains content.
      I think subwoofer problems are more likely to happen with some other subs that don't let you use the high and low level inputs at the same time. Then you have to choose. If you pick high level, the .1 or LFE info is given up and the sub also can't assist your other speakers set to small. If the low level input is chosen, the sub can't assist your mains unless they're set to small - in which case there's no need for them to be towers.
      Ideally, you want the sub to come in below your mains so that it isn't localisable and won't have impact on the stereo image of your mains. Also a problem is the issue of the subs cutoff. Whether it is controlling the high level, low level or both and more importantly, what if the lowest frequency of cutoff that can be set. Boom can happen when your mains are set to large and they roll off at say 30 Hz. If your sub cutoff can only be set down to 40 Hz, you will have an overlap and excessive output between 30 and 40 Hz, causing boom.
      At any rate, there are many issues involved with sub setup and use. I feel the REL's allow for the best integration and deal with these issues better than other subs on the market. THey allow you to use the high and low level input simultaneously (with LFE straight thru), have a cutoff that can be set low, are very musical and many have the ability to adjust the skirt or slope of the cutoff, also allowing finer control of frequency overlap.
      Chris
      - Re: The only thing that matters is how it sounds - KM 08:02:08 08/21/02 (3)
        
        In Reply to: Re: The only thing that matters is how it sounds posted by CD on August 21, 2002 at 06:20:38:
        
        CD,
        Yes, this explanation is much more clear. On the Rel I set my Crossover for the high level to 25hz. As you stated, this supports my mains at their lowest level and kicks in right around when they start to roll off whether music or movies. On the low level input, I am able to select whether to use this crossover or whether all LFE is played by the sub with a switch. I select no crossover for LFE, it plays what it gets in LFE and only uses the Crossover on the sub for the high level to support the mains.
        Another option people are using with this sub, not me, is to set the main speakers to large, set sub to none in the preamp, and use only the high level connection. This causes all LFE to be matrixed to the mains and the sub to support them on anything below where the crossover is set on the sub. The problem I have with this, when you have a sub, is that the director put in LFE specifically to be played by a sub. Usually it is low bass information that is more efficiently handled by equipment specifically designed to play this information. No matter how good your mains are it is a lot to ask of them. Some movies, Titan A&E / Lord of the Rings / Phantom Menace carry a significant amount of low bass infromation in the LFE channel. For the mains to play all of this and the bass information that they normally get is an awful lot to ask. Unless of course you do not own a sub, then you have no other choice.
        KM
        
        Re: The only thing that matters is how it sounds - CD 08:35:22 08/21/02 (2)
        
        In Reply to: Re: The only thing that matters is how it sounds posted by KM on August 21, 2002 at 08:02:08:
        
        I agree with your setup. This discussion really highlights some of the problems associated with having a single HT/Audiophile system. The best is probably to have two dedicated systems.
        BTW, I have the REL Q150E. For me, this was the best compromise for straddling the line between HT and Audio. It also is somewhat affordable and small. The only thing I could say I would want additionally would be a seperate cutoff control for the low level input and that it would be downward firing (aesthetically more pleasing look to me). But these are minor points.
        I am *very* interested in hearing/seeing the new MJ Acoustics sub - which I believe has mimicked the REL input scheme and is downward firing to below 15Hz.
        CD
        
        Re: The only thing that matters is how it sounds - KM 12:49:34 08/21/02 (1)
        
        In Reply to: Re: The only thing that matters is how it sounds posted by CD on August 21, 2002 at 08:35:22:
        
        CD,
        The Rel I have is the Storm III. This is a down firing sub from their ST series. All the subs in this series are down firing. The Storm is rated down to 16hz. The next one up is the Stadium it is rated down to 12hz. After that comes the Stentor rated down to 11hz. Lastly with a 500W amp and 2 long throw 10" drivers is the Studio. This baby is rated down to 9hz. All of their subs have the ability to be tuned in for music ahd HT with both high and low level connections. They are not cheap but they are very well built with high quality parts.
        KM
        
        Re: The only thing that matters is how it sounds - CD 18:08:55 08/21/02 (0)
        
        In Reply to: Re: The only thing that matters is how it sounds posted by KM on August 21, 2002 at 12:49:34:
        
        Yep. I was eyeing the Strata III, but it was out of my budget for now. Similar to the MJ Acoustics Ref I. For their size (12" cubes), the Q150E and Q200E are very impressive and very high quality.
        CD

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