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Re: The only thing that matters is how it sounds

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In Reply to: Re: The only thing that matters is how it sounds posted by KM on August 20, 2002 at 13:36:03:

CD,
I own a Rel Storm III and I set up both high and low level connections. Since 2 channel stereo CD's and 2 Channel SACD'd have no LFE or .1 information then my system sends all bass info to the mains, since they are set to large, and the sub picks up at 25hz and below (not accounting for the slope and roll off of the sub and the mains). The sub will start to kick in somewhere in the 30's right as the mains start to roll off also somewhere in the 30's. Even though my mains are rated down to 20hz, I am sure they roll off way before 20hz.
During DVD playback the sub not only supports the mains as in CD playback above, but gets all the info for the LFE channel as well. This allows for support of my mains below their rolloff and the playing of all the LFE information that the director intended for the subwoofer.
CD, you had mentioned the idea of a "boomy" response by the overlapping of the sub with the mains in your first post. How can this occur in my set up when the LFE channel, right and left main channels are all seperate discrete information independant of each other?
KM

Follow Ups:

Re: The only thing that matters is how it sounds - CD 06:20:38 08/21/02 (4)
"CD, you had mentioned the idea of a "boomy" response by the overlapping of the sub with the mains in your first post. How can this occur in my set up when the LFE channel, right and left main channels are all seperate discrete information independant of each other?"
Exactly my point - with the REL subs (set up properly) it won't suffer bass boom. The high level inputs can be set to blend with your mains - no 'extra' or overloaded output/info at any frequency from the mains content.
I think subwoofer problems are more likely to happen with some other subs that don't let you use the high and low level inputs at the same time. Then you have to choose. If you pick high level, the .1 or LFE info is given up and the sub also can't assist your other speakers set to small. If the low level input is chosen, the sub can't assist your mains unless they're set to small - in which case there's no need for them to be towers.
Ideally, you want the sub to come in below your mains so that it isn't localisable and won't have impact on the stereo image of your mains. Also a problem is the issue of the subs cutoff. Whether it is controlling the high level, low level or both and more importantly, what if the lowest frequency of cutoff that can be set. Boom can happen when your mains are set to large and they roll off at say 30 Hz. If your sub cutoff can only be set down to 40 Hz, you will have an overlap and excessive output between 30 and 40 Hz, causing boom.
At any rate, there are many issues involved with sub setup and use. I feel the REL's allow for the best integration and deal with these issues better than other subs on the market. THey allow you to use the high and low level input simultaneously (with LFE straight thru), have a cutoff that can be set low, are very musical and many have the ability to adjust the skirt or slope of the cutoff, also allowing finer control of frequency overlap.
Chris
- Re: The only thing that matters is how it sounds - KM 08:02:08 08/21/02 (3)
  CD,
  Yes, this explanation is much more clear. On the Rel I set my Crossover for the high level to 25hz. As you stated, this supports my mains at their lowest level and kicks in right around when they start to roll off whether music or movies. On the low level input, I am able to select whether to use this crossover or whether all LFE is played by the sub with a switch. I select no crossover for LFE, it plays what it gets in LFE and only uses the Crossover on the sub for the high level to support the mains.
  Another option people are using with this sub, not me, is to set the main speakers to large, set sub to none in the preamp, and use only the high level connection. This causes all LFE to be matrixed to the mains and the sub to support them on anything below where the crossover is set on the sub. The problem I have with this, when you have a sub, is that the director put in LFE specifically to be played by a sub. Usually it is low bass information that is more efficiently handled by equipment specifically designed to play this information. No matter how good your mains are it is a lot to ask of them. Some movies, Titan A&E / Lord of the Rings / Phantom Menace carry a significant amount of low bass infromation in the LFE channel. For the mains to play all of this and the bass information that they normally get is an awful lot to ask. Unless of course you do not own a sub, then you have no other choice.
  KM
  - Re: The only thing that matters is how it sounds - CD 08:35:22 08/21/02 (2)
    I agree with your setup. This discussion really highlights some of the problems associated with having a single HT/Audiophile system. The best is probably to have two dedicated systems.
    BTW, I have the REL Q150E. For me, this was the best compromise for straddling the line between HT and Audio. It also is somewhat affordable and small. The only thing I could say I would want additionally would be a seperate cutoff control for the low level input and that it would be downward firing (aesthetically more pleasing look to me). But these are minor points.
    I am *very* interested in hearing/seeing the new MJ Acoustics sub - which I believe has mimicked the REL input scheme and is downward firing to below 15Hz.
    CD
    - Re: The only thing that matters is how it sounds - KM 12:49:34 08/21/02 (1)
      CD,
      The Rel I have is the Storm III. This is a down firing sub from their ST series. All the subs in this series are down firing. The Storm is rated down to 16hz. The next one up is the Stadium it is rated down to 12hz. After that comes the Stentor rated down to 11hz. Lastly with a 500W amp and 2 long throw 10" drivers is the Studio. This baby is rated down to 9hz. All of their subs have the ability to be tuned in for music ahd HT with both high and low level connections. They are not cheap but they are very well built with high quality parts.
      KM
      - Re: The only thing that matters is how it sounds - CD 18:08:55 08/21/02 (0)
        
        In Reply to: Re: The only thing that matters is how it sounds posted by KM on August 21, 2002 at 12:49:34:
        
        Yep. I was eyeing the Strata III, but it was out of my budget for now. Similar to the MJ Acoustics Ref I. For their size (12" cubes), the Q150E and Q200E are very impressive and very high quality.
        CD

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