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In Reply to: Re: Do we always need a Center Channel? posted by michael w on November 23, 1999 at 03:11:07:
Hardly overhyped unless you exclusively watch movies starring mimes.
... there are no traces of dialog are left on the other fonts to properly steer the conversation from stage left to stage right, are you? I'm amidst an upgrade from analog DPL. You're making me reconsider that.
As I said earlier dolby digital and dts are discrete 5.1 channel systems that isolate all of the dialogue into a hard center channel (except for those rare instances in which the dialogue is spoken by a character off screen).Unlike dolby surround (matrix) decoders which offer a phantom center channel setting (along with normal and wide settings), DD and DTS decoders offer "large, small or none" center channel settings. Although the difference may not be apparent at first glance - after all "phantom" means no center speaker - in actuality the difference is quite profound. A matrix system focuses all 3 front channels into a hard center and uses steering logic to pan the sound left or right. The entire front soundstage originates in the center speaker, which is why it is widely (and rather simplistically) considered to be the most "important" speaker in a surround setup. (Actually the correct answer is "all of the speakers" are most important).
In contrast, when you select "no center" in a discrete surround system, the dialogue gets folded down into the L-R channels which sacrifices intelligibility and destroys the spatial characteristics and time alignment of the front soundstage, which are primary benefits of 5.1 surround. The spatial damage in particular is far greater than it is in a matrix system which has only a fraction of the channel separation of DD/DTS and which is mixed more benignly.
The bottom line is simply this: everyone is entitled to his or her OPINION regarding a center channel speaker, however, in a correctly implemented 5.1 surround system the use of a hard center is MANDATORY, just a using 2 speakers is mandatory to get the maximum benefit out of a stereo system - that's a fact and not opinion.
I'm planning on buying 2 Magnepan MGCC1s & configure them D'Appolito style to further harden the central image. I'm counting on the Krell will assist in the XO region as it did on my MGLR1s. I still can't find an affordable processor though. Let alone a tube 96/24 DAC one like I want.
If you plan on keeping your existing analog processor, a used Marantz DP-870 with the MSB dts mod is a good buy.Cheap at less than $500.
Easy to use, just wire it after your analog pro and before your power amps.
Sounds good too.
Plus built-in RF demodulator, if you still have laserdiscs.There's a review in Widescreen Review Issue 30.
Another cheapie is the Technics SC-AH500D, only $300 new.
To Michael W,
Very interested in your input.
I've got a Fosgate Model 3A pre-amp (THX), Parasound 1206 6 Ch amp (THX), w/B&W (THX) home theatre speakers.
Haven't bothered with DVDs yet, but do watch movies from Direct TV (satellite).
The question is - how much is there to gain by adding on Dolby Digital (or other(?)formats at this time?
Inevitably a DVD player shall be added. Will it be a profound diference with/without D.D?
If you're going to reccomend this modified Marantz DP-870 - where would somebody find such a thing?Thank you,
Stan Gale
Los Angeles
you won't miss it, until you've heard it. Defined rear images as oposed to ambience, adds a new dimension to movies.
... the library consists of over 300 LDs presently. I started actively acquiring them after viewing several high-end DVD players & dispising the image.
I've heard a speaker setup quite like the one you've choosen and it sounded very good indeed. My personal preference would be to run the maggies full range with a good subwoofer like the REL connected via speaker level. Avoiding the use of a crossover with the maggies would be cleaner and sound more musical IMO.If you're looking for an excellent processor on the cheap and don't mind buying used, consider the Fosgate moder 3A. It is THX rated and has one of the finest matrix surround circuits ever devised. I have seen them used for as little as $400 - not bad considering they listed for $3500 in 1993. Good luck!
In addition to the MGCC1 (demo & used), I'm using the MGLR1s (demo) in the rear mounted horizontally to render a virtual distance via shear width & MG2.7s (used) in front, powered by a Krell KAV-500 (used). To voice match the Krell's current-mode servo sound, I'm using dual Velodyne FSR18s (refurbished) to actively destroy my horrific room acoustic 60hz spike & psuedo-enclosing the rear of the Maggies with egg-crate foam-rubber to quasi-monopole them. I'm currently intending to use CAL:CL-10 -> Geortz:Sapphires (0.5m) -> unknown_processor -> AudioMagic:SpellCasters (0.5m) -> MusicalFidelity:X-10D -> AudioMagic:Sorcerers (0.5m) -> Krell:KAV-500 -> AudioMagic:Excaliber2s (3.0m) -> Magnepans. FWIW, I haven't figured out what to use on the Pioneer:CLD-99 (used).I've been auditioning several ICs from the Cable Co noticed with multiple system assesments that the above split cable configuration eliminates the cables "sound" much as AudioQuest:Diamond do, but w/o the stranded "sound". Of course one does sacrifice a minor amount of Sorcerer's integrity, but the X-10D does keep it to a minimum.
You are an audiophile and I am a philistine! ;-))
I am amazed at your setup and efforts. I too have been scarfing up LDs but I am setting up a reallllly simple system: Classe pre\pro that takes the digital output from CD transport and uses it's own high quality DACs to produce analog stereo without any processing. Then for DD5.1 the Classe uses the whole system (Maggies all around and REL). Boring maybe but it should sound pretty good for both music and theater. Obviously the front speakers will not be optimized for theater but for music.
.
I also know that you can run an Audio Note Ongaku through a broken 6x9 car speaker if you want to.... and it will sound like crap, just like a DTS surround with a phantom center channel. If you subscribe to true 5.1 surround, than a correctly implemented, time aligned center channel is not an option, it is a requirement. Unfortunately few audiophiles have been exposed to a truly high-end surround system with a high quality center channel, thus the bias toward phantom centers - their loss.
Hard center or phantom ?
A matter of taste and operating environment.
To make unfounded statements as you have is plain erroneous.Yes, I have been exposed to "true high end surround systems" (which are few and far between) and yes, those that do use hard centers can sound great.
But this does not denigrate the option of using a phantom center.Horse for courses...
michael w
> > > Hard center or phantom? A matter of taste and operating environment < < <This was the philosophy first espoused by reviewers whose primary interest and background was stereo music, such as Robt Deutsch at Sphile... and who quickly changed his opinion after exposure to a correctly implemented 5 channel system.
> > > To make unfounded statements as you have is plain erroneous < < <
Sorry, but it is you who are in error..... unless you are willing to contradict the more than 200 companies currently offering a center channel speaker (no company that I am aware of builds front and rear speakers onlyand does not offer any centers unless they are catagorized as "L-C-R").
Also, how many surround decoders, processors or receivers do you see on the market that ONLY offer a "phantom" center channel option and no other? NONE.
Your choice that a phantom center is superior is simply opinion, NOT fact; plese do not peddle it as such.
Learn to read Scott, no one said a phantom was superior, merely an alternative.Your statements like dts + phantom = no dialogue is not true, while saying dts systems with phantom centers sound like crap is YOUR opinion and nothing more.
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