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please ??? you're not trying to tell me that ...

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In Reply to: DD, DTS: No center channel = No Dialogue!!! posted by Scott on November 23, 1999 at 12:01:12:

... there are no traces of dialog are left on the other fonts to properly steer the conversation from stage left to stage right, are you? I'm amidst an upgrade from analog DPL. You're making me reconsider that.

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Re: please ??? you're not trying to tell me that ... Scott 08:57:19 11/24/99 (8)
As I said earlier dolby digital and dts are discrete 5.1 channel systems that isolate all of the dialogue into a hard center channel (except for those rare instances in which the dialogue is spoken by a character off screen).
Unlike dolby surround (matrix) decoders which offer a phantom center channel setting (along with normal and wide settings), DD and DTS decoders offer "large, small or none" center channel settings. Although the difference may not be apparent at first glance - after all "phantom" means no center speaker - in actuality the difference is quite profound. A matrix system focuses all 3 front channels into a hard center and uses steering logic to pan the sound left or right. The entire front soundstage originates in the center speaker, which is why it is widely (and rather simplistically) considered to be the most "important" speaker in a surround setup. (Actually the correct answer is "all of the speakers" are most important).
In contrast, when you select "no center" in a discrete surround system, the dialogue gets folded down into the L-R channels which sacrifices intelligibility and destroys the spatial characteristics and time alignment of the front soundstage, which are primary benefits of 5.1 surround. The spatial damage in particular is far greater than it is in a matrix system which has only a fraction of the channel separation of DD/DTS and which is mixed more benignly.
The bottom line is simply this: everyone is entitled to his or her OPINION regarding a center channel speaker, however, in a correctly implemented 5.1 surround system the use of a hard center is MANDATORY, just a using 2 speakers is mandatory to get the maximum benefit out of a stereo system - that's a fact and not opinion.
- my plans ... Mart 09:30:33 11/24/99 (7)
  I'm planning on buying 2 Magnepan MGCC1s & configure them D'Appolito style to further harden the central image. I'm counting on the Krell will assist in the XO region as it did on my MGLR1s. I still can't find an affordable processor though. Let alone a tube 96/24 DAC one like I want.
  - Re: my plans ... michael w 22:42:09 11/24/99 (3)
    If you plan on keeping your existing analog processor, a used Marantz DP-870 with the MSB dts mod is a good buy.
    Cheap at less than $500.
    Easy to use, just wire it after your analog pro and before your power amps.
    Sounds good too.
    Plus built-in RF demodulator, if you still have laserdiscs.
    There's a review in Widescreen Review Issue 30.
    Another cheapie is the Technics SC-AH500D, only $300 new.
    - Re: Marantz DP-870 Stan Gale 22:06:45 11/27/99 (1)
      To Michael W,
      Very interested in your input.
      I've got a Fosgate Model 3A pre-amp (THX), Parasound 1206 6 Ch amp (THX), w/B&W (THX) home theatre speakers.
      Haven't bothered with DVDs yet, but do watch movies from Direct TV (satellite).
      The question is - how much is there to gain by adding on Dolby Digital (or other(?)formats at this time?
      Inevitably a DVD player shall be added. Will it be a profound diference with/without D.D?
      If you're going to reccomend this modified Marantz DP-870 - where would somebody find such a thing?
      Thank you,
      Stan Gale
      Los Angeles
      - AC-3/DD5.1 Mart 11:56:11 11/30/99 (0)
        
        In Reply to: Re: Marantz DP-870 posted by Stan Gale on November 27, 1999 at 22:06:45:
        
        you won't miss it, until you've heard it. Defined rear images as oposed to ambience, adds a new dimension to movies.
    - yes, I do & the collection is still growing ... Mart 23:20:29 11/25/99 (0)
      ... the library consists of over 300 LDs presently. I started actively acquiring them after viewing several high-end DVD players & dispising the image.
  - Affordable processor Scott 10:33:35 11/24/99 (2)
    I've heard a speaker setup quite like the one you've choosen and it sounded very good indeed. My personal preference would be to run the maggies full range with a good subwoofer like the REL connected via speaker level. Avoiding the use of a crossover with the maggies would be cleaner and sound more musical IMO.
    If you're looking for an excellent processor on the cheap and don't mind buying used, consider the Fosgate moder 3A. It is THX rated and has one of the finest matrix surround circuits ever devised. I have seen them used for as little as $400 - not bad considering they listed for $3500 in 1993. Good luck!
    - it only gets better ... Mart 23:09:47 11/25/99 (1)
      In addition to the MGCC1 (demo & used), I'm using the MGLR1s (demo) in the rear mounted horizontally to render a virtual distance via shear width & MG2.7s (used) in front, powered by a Krell KAV-500 (used). To voice match the Krell's current-mode servo sound, I'm using dual Velodyne FSR18s (refurbished) to actively destroy my horrific room acoustic 60hz spike & psuedo-enclosing the rear of the Maggies with egg-crate foam-rubber to quasi-monopole them. I'm currently intending to use CAL:CL-10 -> Geortz:Sapphires (0.5m) -> unknown_processor -> AudioMagic:SpellCasters (0.5m) -> MusicalFidelity:X-10D -> AudioMagic:Sorcerers (0.5m) -> Krell:KAV-500 -> AudioMagic:Excaliber2s (3.0m) -> Magnepans. FWIW, I haven't figured out what to use on the Pioneer:CLD-99 (used).
      I've been auditioning several ICs from the Cable Co noticed with multiple system assesments that the above split cable configuration eliminates the cables "sound" much as AudioQuest:Diamond do, but w/o the stranded "sound". Of course one does sacrifice a minor amount of Sorcerer's integrity, but the X-10D does keep it to a minimum.
      - I guess that defines us! BobH 21:29:04 11/27/99 (0)
        
        In Reply to: it only gets better ... posted by Mart on November 25, 1999 at 23:09:47:
        
        You are an audiophile and I am a philistine! ;-))
        I am amazed at your setup and efforts. I too have been scarfing up LDs but I am setting up a reallllly simple system: Classe pre\pro that takes the digital output from CD transport and uses it's own high quality DACs to produce analog stereo without any processing. Then for DD5.1 the Classe uses the whole system (Maggies all around and REL). Boring maybe but it should sound pretty good for both music and theater. Obviously the front speakers will not be optimized for theater but for music.

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