 
|
Audio Asylum Thread Printer Get a view of an entire thread on one page |
For Sale Ads |
|
|
Audio Asylum Thread Printer Get a view of an entire thread on one page |
For Sale Ads |
Despite changing of speakers, center channel, etc., the dialogue on some DVD movies is hard to understand on my current setup. Here is the equipment:- Yamaha RXV-995 Receiver
- Yamaha DVD-S795 DVD Player
- Coincident Technology Triumph Signature monitors (fronts)
- Ruark Dialogue II Center channel (demoing from local audio store)
- RBH in-ceiling speakers (rears)
- Cables are POS all the way around
- TV: Pioneer Big Screen from 1992
- DishNetwork satelliteThe room has hardwood floors, no rugs or carpeting, stone fireplace, windows along one side of the room (no curtains or blinds), 10' ceilings, open area to kitchen, breakfast nook, hallway.
Is it the source equipment? The room dynamics? Please advise on the things that I should rule out. Incidentally, I initially demoed the Ruark center channel at the audio shop (in their dedicated HT room) connected to a Loewe television, Rotel receiver, Arcam DVD player, Ruark fronts, Ruark subwoofer, PSB rears, and the dialogue was crystal clear & impressive.
Thanks for your help on this.
Follow Ups:
Where did you put the center channel speaker ?If it's on top of the TV, the TV cabinet can interact and "muffle" the sound. If its beneath, refelctions from the floor can interfere. Some center channel speakers have a switch or different wiring to allow placement on top of a TV. I would recommend making the plane of the speaker the same as the plane of the TV screen.
Timbre matching is crucial to intelligibility also. Gotta have the same make or least the same type drivers and cabinets otherwise there will be timbre as sound pans across the front speakers.
Use the same type cable for all three front speakers and cut them the same length.
Adequate power is needed for center channel to drive it without compression and clipping during sound effects. There lots of effects sounds in the center channel too.
From practical experience ....
Enjoy the music.
So what have you tried and what have you discovered about your center channel dialog clarity?
It appears to be several things:1. The room dynamics -- I am going to probably need to cover the windows, as well as get several large rugs to take care of the "echo".
2. The source (software) is having some impact -- some movies are worse than others.
3. The Ruark is not complimentary with the Coincident monitors.
4. Calibration did not resolve the issues I mentioned previously. Incidentally the speakers were not "out of sync."
Here's what I am going to do to try to resolve:
1. As previously mentioned, cover the windows and purchase several large rugs for the hardwoods.
2. I have already returned the Ruark. I am planning on purchasing tower speakers and a center channel that are complimentary with each other. The towers will work better from an esthetic standpoint in the room anyway. I am considering Linn Ninkas as towers and a Linn center channel (forgot the model). Obviously, I will demo them in my environment prior to purchase.
If these things do not resolve the issues, the receiver and DVD player are targeted next for evaluation.
Good plan or no?
Many thanks for all the suggestions and excellent feedback. If you have any suggestions on speakers/center channel to evaluate, please do not be bashful :-)
Yes,The new speakers, rugs and window treatments will surely make a huge positive difference for you.
Just kidding. No I'm not. Yes I am. No I'm not. Yes I am. No I'm not...Well anyway, AG (see, you're now referenced like the gods in Stereophile magazine!), did you find a solution to your dialogue troubles?
My best guess wouyld be to fiddle with the center channel delay.Is the center channel in the same horizontal plane as the main left and right speaker? If yes, you need to add (+) delay to the center channel in the Yamaha speaker setup menu.
Your center channel delay can be represented in ms. or ft., it doesn't matter. You should try listening to the DVD with the center channel delay at +1, +2, or +3 or more and see if the dialog is easier to understand.
It will depend on whether or not the audio or the video has a longer processing chain. But if you're not careful, you may notice that your A/V system reminds you of the old "kung-fu" movies and their English overdubs. It may help with the dialogue clarity, but lips that don't match up with the words isn't the compromise you'll want to make.
Joe,I think if you read my message again you will notice I discussed center channel positioning in relation to main speakers.
For correct 5.1 placement the center speaker will need to be in a plane behind the main speakers, e.g. place front left, center and front right on an "arc" using the listening position as the radius point.
If, in fact, the center speaker is lined up in the same plane as the mains (it's actually closer to the listening position than the mains in this position), you will need to add delay to get the sound synchronized.
My point in cautioning against using delay compensation was this:> > > It may help with the dialogue clarity, but lips that don't match up with the words isn't the compromise you'll want to make. < < <
See? I agreed that it "may" help with the dialogue issues, but again, "lips that don't match up with the words... ".
I'll give you an example using my wife's living room setup. The three front speakers are set up straight across -- not in an arc (yes, I've known that it's technically incorrect for many, many moons, but...). To compensate for the difference in distance of the center vs the left and right speakers, the delay should be increased for the center. Agreed? However, the video processing time from the output of the laserdisc player or the DVD player to the output on the screen is much (yes, a fraction of a second = much -- HA HA HA!) shorter than the audio processing time from the laserdisc player or DVD player through the surround processor, 5.1 analog inputs on the surround receiver and then to the speakers. Know what happens when I delay the center channel by more than 1ms? I get audio dialogue not matching video lips! Therefore, I set the center delay to 0ms and the lips match the dialogue that I hear. Pick your poison. As for me, I'd rather have the dialogue match the moving lips. Last time I checked, except for those great kung-fu movies (he he he), that's the way it happens in real life.
:-)Please keep in mind that I am not saying that Audio Girl will have these lip-sync issues. She may or may not. It will depend on her system and audio vs video processing times.*
I have never seen nor heard the speakers in question, but I believe that bhjazz posted a possible reason (well done Mr Holmes!) for the dialogue problem below. Then again, though I didn't specifically address the speaker, I too posted a (generic) cure for the sensitivity issue --the SPL meter.
By the way, some of the newer (pricey) surround receivers and processors are including a delay feature to compensate for the processing time of video processors, plasmas, etc. This is for all of the channels -- not just center and surround channels. Of course, it's just the opposite of what happens in the wife's system.
* such as in the example given above
Yes, I understand your point, it's just that I don't find it to be a commonly observed phenomenon by that many people, unless you are using separate video scalers with projectors which do introduce their own video delay.Dialog clarity is much more important to me anyway, in fact sound is much more important period.
#1 Here's the problem with the room:> > > The room has hardwood floors, no rugs or carpeting, stone fireplace, windows along one side of the room (no curtains or blinds), 10' ceilings, open area to kitchen, breakfast nook, hallway. < < <
Except for the 10' ceilings (that's a plus), it's too reflective. From the description of the room, you have sound bouncing all over the place. There are some non-audiophile geek things you can do to help with this situation: get a big throw rug for the floor, put up some curtains that match the room's decor, etc.
#2 Is the system calibrated? Did you set each speaker's level with an SPL meter or by ear? If you didn't use a meter, try this to improve the clarity and consistency in the sound.
#3 There are many DVD soundtracks that are notorious for poor dialogue reproduction. I don't know if it's the transfer of older (5 or more years back) soundtracks to the Dolby Digital or DTS digital codecs or just bad engineering of the center channel information. And, of course, it could be both. This has been observed from a properly calibrated hi-end system, so it's not due to poor electronics/speakers. In this case, if you're still having problems with center channel dialogue, after you calibrate the speaker levels as closely as possible with a meter, boost the center channel level by 1 or 2dB. This should be done as a last resort, but you may have no choice.
#4 Since you said "some" DVD movies, I believe believe you are experiencing the problems that I addressed in #3. If your system or speakers were the problem, it should affect more than "some".
The above suggestions and opinions are just that -- MY suggestions and MY opinions. I hope that you can get the performance out of your HT that you desire.
#2 Is the system calibrated? Did you set each speaker's level with an SPL meter or by ear? If you didn't use a meter, try this to improve the clarity and consistency in the sound.
Yes yes yes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!The Triumph Sig's are 91 dB efficient
The Ruark Dialogue II is 89 dB efficient
What it looks like is that your main speakers are more efficient. What does this mean? It means that with the same power, they will produce more output (sound louder.) For various reasons, it might be better to get a single Triumph Sig and make it your center channel if possible.If this is not possible, then use Joe's suggestion #2 of calibrating your system. Does your receiver have setup tones that cycle through your speakers? If so, then get a Radio Shack sound level meter (very useful) and sit at your listening spot, noting the levels of the front three speakers. You may notice that your center channel is slightly lower. Just adjust, and you'll be set.
As for this being movie dependant....yep. Movies are all amstered in different places by people with different ideas. This is why you need to have access to individual channel levels for every movie.
bhjazz
Does your reciever have preamp outs? If so, try running the centre and fronts into your integrated. If that sounds better than the issue is with the reciever.
...
I have two different setups in two different rooms: one is two channel & one is HT. I would like to keep everything separate. Are you talking about using the integrated just to test the receiver?
nt
if you have any other amp with a volume control, just find the center channel pre-out and connect it to another amp. and of course connect center speaker wire to the new amp.if it works fine especially as you increase the volume, then you know it's the 5 channel amp. it is likely to be that or just that the amp/speaker combo is not working out. the speaker may not have high enough sensitivity for the amp.
also make sure you're 5 channel amp/processor stays in the same processing mode for all dvds.
Even with some new movies. I think they don't expect you to be using a good wide-range center speaker. Anyway, I very rarely now have to adjust the center channel level, but can't you do that? Leaving the other channel levels relatively low, so that you can crank up the master volume? Surely that would work (and may be how it was at the dealer?). Also, make sure the center speaker is aimed at you when you're sitting, as best as possible.Have you tried a phantom center? If the CC speaker is no clearer than that, forget it! I haven't tried a Ruark, but tried several others here. Found the Paradigm Reference CC blended/worked fine for me. This speaker apparently blends well with lots of non-matching speakers, at least from what I read in reviews after I bought it. Just a thought...
The source is generally going to be the bottleneck in reproducing intelligible lyrics and dialog. Though others are correct to point out that source material (not just the source) can be a factor. You can rule that out (as you've probably tried) by playing the suspect DVDs in one of your dealer's (or a friend's) better HT rigs. You might also be running out of "gain" or whatever the correct term is that I am thinking of (when you turn the volume knob, and you still need more).Also someone else noted speaker to room interactions. this is probably the single biggest factor when assembling any rig. I've always avoided the big pitfalls, myself, right off of the bat. So perhaps I've been lucky.
I sometimes did before I got a good-working center speaker though. They do not all work well, and price is certainly no indication, IME. I was just pointing out source material varies a lot. Depending what you view. Some "DD" discs have ALL the sound in the center, some have none at all . So not to judge by just a couple of randomly chosen discs, there are no quality standards for them, sound varies wildly.
Maybe the source material is bad.. Since I upgraded my equipment, I am surprised at how the quality of the recorded material varies.
Most movies and TV just don't sound that good, most of them were engineered at a time when systems of a revealing nature were not in use for home theater.
This post is made possible by the generous support of people like you and our sponsors:
Top of Page ]
[ Contact Us ]
[ Support/Wish List ]
[ Copyright © 2024, Audio Asylum, all rights reserved ]
