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Hello all-
A stupid generic question. The wife is finally bugging
ME to get a plasma. There's other details involved (like
she gets a sectional and a new bathtub) but her interest is
making me shop seriously. Purchase is iminent.Q #1: Is it worth the extra $1-2K for full HD versus ED?
I don't care about regular TV in HD, The Tonight Show in
16:9 HD does not even remotely peak my interest. I've read that
unless closer than 5 feet, ED should be fine, but I don't want
to be regretting not spending the extra later for HD. ED would
get me around $4K for a Panasonic, HD would be more like $5500.Q #2: I'm considering 42" models. Any strong opinions anywhere
(there's a loaded forum question) regarding the current crop?
I'm currently considering the Sony (list $6999/ sell $6500),
and the Phillips (list $5500/ sell $5000). The Sony analog
tuner would be nice, I would get an external tuner for the Phillips
at a later date. I'm not even considering cheaper models
like Sampo because I want to keep availability of service open
as long as possible (15 yr projected life?). The BenQ
looks interesting and cheap, but I know nothing about it.Thanks in advance,
RFGumby
Follow Ups:
Hi guys-
I picked it up Friday. I went with the ED 42" Panasonic.
My wife honestly would have gone for the HD if it had been
important to me, but half again the money for the higher rez
really makes no sense. If all goes HD (again, I don't much care
about broadcast) then spending $3700 verses $5700 leaves me $2K
down the road to apply toward a newer model. A 50" doesn't even
hit my radar screen, they haven't come down enough in price yet.
This is, after all, just TV.My only real complaint is the non-ability to switch between
S-vid and composite on the 1st inputs. When you plug in the S-vid
it defaults to it, but has only one set of audio inputs. *sigh*
From an engineering standpoint, the picture is a bit soft. But color
temp and phase seem about right, and we view from about 9 feet
away, so I don't constantly look at the pixels. By the way, this
set is going back- it popped 6 pixels today. I was expecting
a pretty heavy failure rate as is the rate with all manufacturers
plasmas, but it only went 3 days. Doh! I have one on hold
to swap it with, but it is a pain in the buttocks. Hi-ho, hi-ho,
back to the store we go...Thanks again for everyones help.
Good call. It's a great plasma.Two things jumped out at me in your post, though. When you say the picture is "a bit soft," do you mean regular NTSC cable/sat channels, or even DVDs. The last thing I'd describe DVDs on the Panny is "soft." (Most of my guest's jaws hit the floor when they see a DVD on this plasma, and remark that it has a clarity they've never seen before).
Also, it's actually unusual for your plasma to have bad pixels, and you shouldn't have "expected" it in any way. Panasonic plasmas in particular have among the tightest quality control. In fact, in around two years of haunting the AVSplasma forum, I'm not sure I can recall anyone reporting a Panasonic plasma with dead pixels (whereas I've seen quite a few reports from people who have bought other brands, such as Pioneer).
Sorry to hear about the pixels. I'd also do some experimenting with connections and DVD players if I were you...the picture shouldn't really be soft.
Enjoy.
Hi Rich-
I went off on the last post with just my wife's
word. Being an engineer that has to deal with video
etc. problems all day, I should have known better. When
I got home to check it out, shure enough there was a group
of black pixels surrounding a white spot (resembling a flower).After a reboot and changing sources and cabling I got it
to only show up on the first input with DSS as a source on
either the Svid or composite inputs. The component inputs
from DVD worked correctly. After more dinking around, it stopped
completely, and has been working properly since with all sources.I haven't called to unreserve the other... I want to
wait another day to insure all is well. I had read a year or more ago
that dying pixels was a potential hazard, so I was most likely
hyper-sensitive to that information. I had also read an article
on Asian production of plasmas and the reason at that time they
were so expensive was they had about a 90% factory failure rate,
and that wasn't even including shipment damages. That equated to
big bucks to the public.The "fuzziness" was on composite ins (DSS). On a reference
NTSC Sony monitor, NTSC looks quite tight, so it's not composite
as a whole, but may be the source receiver. The S-vid looks
better. The component ins look similar to the S-vid ins. I'll
be doing a complete setup with a Tektronix reference bar generator
tonight, using a bunch of signals. I also today made up a
handful of tight spec coax high flex 75 ohm BNC terminated cables
that I have gold BNC to RCA's for. I put some of them in last night
for the component from the DVD, and they locked better and looked
better. I'll go down the AC filtering road when I get more time.
I can easily borrow conditioners from my audio rig for testing.Thansk again for everyone's help and advise,
RFG
"Q #1: Is it worth the extra $1-2K for full HD versus ED?
I don't care about regular TV in HD,"Unfortunately, this is one only you can answer. I had the Panny 42" ED model. I can only give you my perspective. When the Panny 42" HD model came out I auditioned it thoroughly, to see if it would be worth trading in my ED model (the dealer was going to let me do so).
I found:1. HDTV on the HD model looked a bit sharper, with tiny details being held into the far background. The Panny ED model looks incredible on HD, definitely giving you the "window on the world" HD experience. I'd guesstimate that it gives me about 85% of the true HD model. Also, it's nice that the HD model has more discreet pixels, so you can sit a bit closer without seeing them (if that is your want). If you know you'll be viewing from 7 1/2 feet or more away, the difference between these two models does indeed get to be a close call with HD signals. From my viewing distance of 8 feet pixel structure of the ED model mostly vanishes, looking terrifically smooth and sharp.
2. I also don't care all that much about standard fare in HD. Mostly because I don't watch too mutch broadcast TV, and chose the plasma mostly in the basis of how it looked playing movies (DVDs). I do have quite a bit of HD content available to me, and I occaisionally flip the channel to them just to think "wow, neato." But it doesn't sustain me, like watching DVDs does. One big plus is that the Panny ED model looks wonderful with NTSC signals - better than any RPTV I've seen, and in fact better than most of the digital CRT HDTV tube sets as well (in my comparisons). Very good for the WAF factor - you don't want to buy such an expensive display only to have the wife complain it looks worse (on normal broadcast) than the cheapo unit you replaced. My wife, who doesn't give a darn about picture quality, readily concurs the plasma beats the pants off our Panasonic Tau CRT for regular TV watching. The Panny HD model looks a bit softer and noiser than the ED model with NTSC. This is true of just about every HD plasma I've seen, presumably because of the need to scale NTSC to a greater number of pixels. I find most HD displays look "processed" with NTSC. FWIW.
For DVDs, the Panny ED model is truly hard to beat. In fact, it has perhaps the most solid, rich and most artifact-free image with DVDs that you are likely to see anywhere around it's size. Most people who have compared the Panny ED model to others concur.
Watch out for the Sony models. I've demoed them quite a bit. Especially the "ALIS" panels (ones that do HD res by a form of interlacing). They look bright, colorful and very sharp with the right material. But man can they suck with anything challenging, such as scenes with lots of black or shadow detail. The Sony's wash out those details, and take on a rather silly solorized look. Price/performance ration for Sony plasmas is, in my and many other people's view, the worst bargain out there.
For 42" plasmas I suggest looking at the Panasonic models, which can't be beaten for rich black levels. The new Fuji 42" is based on the Panasonic glass, and offers the same black level performance with a few other user perks, but at a higher price. People have been very happy with the performance of the Fuji 42" (and it offers another set of component inputs over the Panny's single input, which is great).
The Pioneer 43" model is HD res and many love it (the commercial version is cheaper than the Elite version, with the same performance).
Pioneer has a brighter, more vivid, and some may say slightly sharper look than the Panasonic plasmas. The trade-off is that the are slightly less smooth looking (more visible dithering or pixilation to the image), and the black levels are not quite black, which can bother some people.Hitachi is another nice 42" plasma (ALIS based, I believe), but pricey too.
I prefer going the "monitor" route myself, as I like to control my choice of all associated components - and the pathway to my plasma.
With the majority of the "do-it-all" plasmas these days, like the Soney that come with a media box, you pay a price in ultimate picture quality. Putting everything through a media box tends to compromise the images a bit - very easily illustrated by the Pioneer 43" models, which are offered with and without media boxes. The one with the media box has the inferior picture, being noisier, slightly softer and less acceptable black levels.That's all I have time to spew :-)
For now, why don't you join me on a "Virtual Plasma Tour," and take a look at screen images of movies playing on my Panny ED plasma. Just click the link:
nn
RubenSan Francisco, California
.
Hey RFG,
I disagree with some of the advice below. 42" is a very popular size for 8-12 foot viewing. A 50" is harder to accomodate in average rooms. It depends on your priorities. I am even considering a 37" even though the 2-3 time a week I am watching a movie I could easily enjoy a 50. As far as Extended Def vs. Hi Def. goes it dependes on your viewing. Yes, sports and cable freaks can't get enough of the Hi Def. We watch a few hours of plain Jane network programming a week plus DVD movies. If you don't view alot of hi def programming then you can shop for the best picture quality on an ED set and save some $.The Panasonics seem to be the reining champs of ED. Go to avsforum.com
and select displays then plasma. Huge wealth of info. There is a power
buy through AVS on a Samsung 42" for about $3200. It does have the tuner but no speakers. It has been fairly well reviewed. I went down to a Seattle dealer Plasma USA last night. The Samsung just didn't come close to the Panasonic it was next to in picture quality.
I won't try to describe, just encourage you to check it out. I'll be looking for a buy on the current model panasonic 37 or 42 inch when they release their new models (any time in next month or 2)
Ras,EVERYTHING is going HD. The DBS boys are lighting up come July 1st which will push cable which will push DBS, etc. OTA HD is very widely available in most TV markets. Your "few hours of plain Jane network programming" is almost certainly broadcast in HD. And HD-DVD will make a huge splash in the next year or two (being backward compatible with 480p DVD-Vs).
As far as size, ask anyone that went with the larger size RPTV. You'll find about 1/2 a percent that downsized. The ONLY reason to go 42" would be if there is simply no wall space to mount a 50". Check the outside dimensions - the 50" is just a tad bigger than the 42".
Why anyone would pay 75-90% of HD PDP prices for a crippled ED version is beyond me. You'd be downrezzing just about everything except DVD-Videos and Fox (both not long for the 480p world). Gotta look down the road, not at your feet, in this biz.
Austin
Still respectfully disagree. Personally don't give a flying (word for sexual intercourse) aout any broadcast programming. May upgrade to HD down the road if DVD goes HD but that will be some years. Basically my opinion is placed on viewing not theory and the ED panasonics are kicking butt of any HD sets within a thousand or two bucks of it when playing a DVD. By the way I have no place to wall mount a set.I'm suggesting that there are different needs for different applications, no universal truths in this matter. Anyone interested can go over to AVS forum, the plasma discussion group goes back and forth on this pretty extensively and ED does have it's supporters especially in the 3-4K sets available.
Best Wishes, Larry
If anyone has more opinions, I'd gladly read some more,
but thanks to everyone for the help.I installed a 42" Sony about a year ago for my disabled
father-in-law, and ever since, it's just no fun to watch
on the ancient 27" we have. Sure, a 50" would be nice, but
at what point is enough enough. My obsessive side says
70", but I also don't need to go anymore in plastic debt than
I already am (recent home addition). The wife is comfortable
with between $4-5K, but any more than that and we start to hit
her new used car budget, or paying off debt.AAhh, Fujitsu taste on a Panasonic budget. I'd need different
DSS receivers and off-air HD receivers and so forth for HD, but
barring the aforementioned PBS programs or concert events would
likely rarely miss regular broadcast. I'm also a broadcast
engineer, so I understand all the rhetoric, but avoid the alphabet
channels like the plague.
I do have a soft spot for the movie channels, though, so maybe
HD... Doh!Pesky big t.v.'s ! I should just stick to my Hi End audio gear!
Thanks again for any input,
RFG
Some good info available here:http://www.plasmatvbuyingguide.com/
http://www.avsforum.com/
A1. Yup. No Leno? How about Sports? Most marquee events are HD. And just about every prime time show on CBS/ABC/NBC is HD. How about PBS? If you're cable, HBO/SHO/MAX/DISC/STARZ/ESPN/PPV/etc. are all up or soon to be up in HD. HD-DVD is around the corner. It'd be a huge mistake to sink 4 grand into a panel that can't display HD.A2. Wrong size. 50" is the sweetspot in PDPs.
Pioneer 503CMX at Dell. Use a 15% off coupon and then try to stack a 10%. Should bring it in at right around 5k. Fully warranted and returnable no questions asked if you have any problems. You can see this same unit (in "consumer" version 5030) at any Best Buy.
Good luck.
Austin
Actually, the number is not 5ft -- it's about 8ft for a 42" plasma screen. And the concensus amoung plasma owners is that for a screen this size, you will not regret ED over HD. That is, provided you choose a high quality plasma manufacturer like Fujitsu, Panasonic or Pioneer.I'd suggest that you steer away from the Sampo/Gateway/etc units. They seem to consume more electricity and run on the bright side (the heat output gives this away) compared to the above manufacturers.
Samsung is making a push in the plasma game, but they are not quite there yet. Maybe next year's models with compete better with the "Big 3". I would classify Philips in the same boat.
Sony is also behind in plasma technology by about a generation (that's in plasma-speak, not years). However, some of their designs are eyecatching and very futuristic looking. But if you're after the best quality for your $s, pass on their models. By that I mean the plasma models, not the hot chicks that accompany some of their demos!
Pioneer may be releasing some new panels in the fall/spring. Noone seems to know for sure. Their current panels are highly rated and you can usually find good deals on them. A few 3rd party manufacturers also offer video cards to upgrade the standard Pioneer cards. While this doesn't make them futureproof, it is a nice option should you want to upgrade.
Fujitsu just came out with their new models a few months ago. They are condidered to be THE BEST by plasma afficiados. They incorporate Fujitsu's electronic know-how with Panasonic glass. As expected, they are not cheap -- the best usually isn't.
Panasonic comes in a close second to Fujitsu. They will be releasing new models in July and August. Their new design will use silver for the consumer model (with attached speakers) and black for the commercial model (no included speakers). The consumer model will have many video inputs -- including DVI -- and have a list of $4999 (I've seen preorders for $3999, but the price may go further down once they are released and competition takes over). The commercial model can usually be purchased for a bit less ($500 or more, depending on demand, seller, etc). This unit will not include a DVI connection, but DVI will be offered via an upgrade card (no, it's not free). Some people prefer the commercial route over the consumer version. There are pros and cons to each.
By the way, this is not an all-encompassing progress report on plasma. My suggestion is that you research, research and while your at it, do some more research. Last time I checked, $4k - $6k was not chump change. What's right for you may not be what's right for me. Be informed before you purchase and learn as much as you can about the technology, the different designs and the manufacturers of plasma monitors. Trust me -- you'll be happier and satisfied if you do.
Here's a link to some good information:
.
I thought that I was very generous with the amount of information. It wasn't an in-depth essay and wasn't meant to be all-inclusive. I thought that I mentioned that? By the way, you guys forgot Zenith, Cornea, Vizio, BenQ, LG, Hitachi...I promise I'll try harder next time.
:-)As for NEC, if you must know, they don't generate a great deal of news. That's not to say they don't make quality plasmas -- on the contrary, they do. But NEC's not a newsmaker for whatever reason. Of course, the irony is that they not only make their own glass, but glass for several other plasma manufacturers!
NEC kind of sits in the middle of plasmaland. They are better than the "newsmaking 'cause they're cheap" -- um, I mean inexpensive -- brands like Gateway/Sampo/etc. However, the electronics in the NECs are not perceived to be on par with those of Fujitsu, Panasonic and Pioneer units. That's not my opinion, by the way. But after reading a ton of news, reviews, posts, responses and articles on plasma technology, that's how NEC is viewed in general.
There are many ways to buy plasma and sometimes what looks great may cost you in the end. Some online dealers offer cash/check discounts, some charge actual shipping cost, some rape you on shipping, some are knowlegeable, some only push and have no idea of what they are selling, etc.
In any case, the best advice is to research before you put down your cash or credit card. Visit all of the plasma resources on the web, check out the plasma forums and ask as many questions as you feel are necessary to satisfy you. Then, when you are ready to actually view the models that you're interested in, you'll be armed with the facts that will guide you to the best decision.
Panasonic has a cool new 42" consumer model (TH-42PA20U) coming out in late July/August. I'm either getting one of these or the new commercial model (August and adding the DVI board) shortly after they're released. I just got my Bravo D1, so I need something to plug that DVI cable into. Know what I mean?
:-)Abe, if I may, can I ask why didn't you get a plasma?
Hi Joe -1.)I wanted an HDTV plasma and the prices were still outside my comfort zone. And....
2.)Living at higher than 'normal' elevation here in Colorado, I found that *most* plasma screens buzz loud enough to be annoying. You don't really notice it so much in a busy electronics super store but if you visit while the store is nearly empty around closing time, most of the plasmas are fairly loud with that annoying buzz. Some buzz more than others within the same product line and even model number. It's a hit or miss chance you take whether the one you buy will be loud or somewhat quiet. I'm told that it has something to do with the gas pressure within the screen not be optimized for our higher elevations.
So, I ended up with the Sony KV-34XBR800 16:9 CRT (heavy beast!) for now and will wait a year or two and see how things shake out for thin flat-panel screens like plasma and possibly LCD. (Comparable sized LCD's were more expensive than the plasmas when I was shopping and there was only one brand worth considering at the time - Sharp).
I think you had a question about the altitude situation a while back. I forgot about that.Samsung has recently put some big $ towards their LCD line. Early this year or late last year, they demoed a prototype LCD that was 52" (16 x 9). I don't remember the expected price (won't be cheap!), but I think they were shooting for a Q4 2003 or Q1 2004 release date.
LCD may be the way for you to go if you're planning on staying "in the clouds" (he he he). The Samsung I mentioned has the depth of a plasma -- from what I can tell. Also, Sony will be coming out with their new line of LCD displays in the fall. They've bumped up the size to 70" on their Grand Wega LCD (about $7k).
Of course, it's a bit pricey, but Toshiba has their new LCoS televisions. Expected in the fall are updated versions from last year -- a 57" and a 65". Last year's 57" sold for about $9k. One would hope that prices might come down, but who knows?
These designs (LCD and LCoS) may fit the bill regarding the high altitude "buzz" problem. Then again, they may not "fit the bill" regarding the financial issues -- buyer beware. Or, is that buyer be rich?
:-)
Great info, Joe! You helped me recently but my situation steered me away from Plasma for now. I'm also curious why you did not list NEC. Of the ones you mentioned, I especially liked the Panasonic units.I'm happy with my 16:9 CRT for now but may switch to a thin flat-screen (of whatever the dominant technology) in a couple years.
Good and accurate info...Why didnīt you mention NEC, actually is my favourite in colour, first impression, and their new models have 12 bit processor for high # of shades of grey, etc...
Antonio Melo Ribeiro
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