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About half a year ago, I decided to buy a DVD home theater system. My original budget was $2K, but I couldn't find a reasonable system in that price range, so I upped the budget to $10K. For your amusement, here are my admittedly novice thoughts along the way.
Yours,--andy
(BTW * indicates that I purchased that item.)
SPEAKERS: (roughly sorted in order of increasing preference-to-price ratio)
B&W 302: The 302 was reasonable for the price but it doesn't belong in Stereophile class C-LF. It had a dark balance and a raspy papery coarseness not found in more expensive speakers. I found the 302's tweeter/woofer integration was better than the 602, though the 602 had a better frequency range. Listened on Marantz receiver, Pioneer Elite receiver.
Monitor Silver 3/Silver 5: I expected more from the Silvers based on all the excellent reviews. Certainly the highs were vivid and exciting and the lows were punchy and big. Yet the highs could be shrill and the bass was not deep. The crossover region was awkward - the tweeter and woofer did not integrate well. Dealer was not impressed with the Monitors, but gave a shrug and said people were buying them through phone unlistened. I could see that the edge and bite might have synergy on a subdued HT receiver, giving a lively presentation, but probably not for separates. Auditioned on a Marantz amp; Silver 5 had lead shot weighting.
B&W CDM 1SE: Reasonable all around speaker, but the crossover region was not as refined as the Paradigm, Dynes, or Fabers. The treble had good detail and the bass was just a touch uncontrolled. Listened with a Marantz and Classe amp. This is a civilized version of the Bohemian Monitor Silvers.
Dynaudio Contour 1.3mkII and Audience 50. Excellent unfatiguing tweeter with detailed highs. A solid woofer (with a smidgen of flat "blat" at the lower end with the Audience 50). Rear port was sensitive to wall placement, and the bung was useless. Crossover region was amazingly smooth, maybe even smoother than the Fabers. Despite the evenly presented music and the good horizontal and vertical imaging, there was little depth or air. Though these were not the speakers for me, I can easily see why Dynes have a following because of the even presentation. Listened with a Classe, Parasound, and a Marantz amp, but nothing with real power. I also heard a Dyne Audience HT setup with a Proceed Amp5 and had similar reactions: good balance, but no life, then again, only 125W power.
B&W N805: This speaker can play loud with little distortion and an effortless clarity I didn't hear in other speakers. In fact it sounded better loud. The tweeter was hyperdetailed and imaged fine, but somehow didn't perfectly timbre match the woofer as much as I would expect from a $2K speaker. The crossover region was more seamless than the 1SE, equal to the paradigms, but worse than the Dynes or the Fabers. I heard this with a Classe and an Adcom amp on music. With a Denon 5700 and a M&K 125, the N805 home theater setup with B&W dipole surrounds was excellent - natural, full, dynamic. Somehow uninvolving for music though, but in a different way than the Dynes.
Sonus Faber Concertino: A very open overachieving speaker with a smooth crossover region, tight midbass, but somehow thin in the midrange with a vague hollow emptiness. Magical minispeaker with many positives, but for a couple hundred less, the Paradigm Reference 20 brought more balanced music to the table, albeit without the Concertino's air, space, and emotion. Listened on a Parasound amp.
Paradigm Reference 20: An excellent all-around speaker. For the price, could have lived with this speaker happily. Excellent overall timbre, but only a few minor faults: the midrange region was not quite as good as the Dynes or the Fabers and the bass was not precise. Sonus/Paradigm dealer suggested this even over the more pricy Concertinos for wide range listening (except for chamber music/jazz). Listened on a Parasound amp.
* Sonus Faber Concerto: A speaker with a rich midrange. The crossover is seamless, the treble is sweet, and the bass is rhythmic. It is similar to the Paradigms but with better air, imaging, and soundstage, and I thought the price was well worth the polish. On home theater and rock dynamics, the Concertos might seem muted compared to the N805. Does not go very deep in bass, so a subwoofer helps balance. The Concertos are low efficiency speakers, so a good amp is necessary to avoid sounding dull. Listened on Parasound, Adcom, and ATI.
Summary:
Since my home theater is set up in a small room (the main area is 12x15), floorstanders were out and I only considered monitor speakers. The SF Concertos provided good monitor speaker sound, near-field, intimate, airy, and close. Due to time/dealer constraints I did not listen to the Thiel, Joseph Audio, Merlin, Totem, AP, Silverline, and Vienna lines.
SOLID STATE 5CH AMPLIFIERS: (roughly sorted in order of increasing preference to price ratio)Adcom GFA7500: Saccharine sweet - there's a peculiar aftertaste in the decay of treble notes. I found it dark in the low-mids and a touch smeared in the highs. The bass was solid but not as detailed as the Parasound. A thin midrange compared to the Classe.
Classe CAV150: Rich, warm, smooth, and unfatiguing, but didn't seem to sparkle. I preferred it to the Adcom, not necessarily the Parasound or ATI; regardless at this price point, it didn't match my budget.
Parasound 1205A: A touch of carmel through the midbass, but with a clear treble and detailed visceral bass that made the Adcom sound like a thumper. Microdetails resolved well, though large scale dynamics were slightly overwhelmed. Parasound dealer recommended Parasound for music, ATI for home theater (even though he didn't carry ATI). Heard same line from another dealer as well. Listened to the Parasound 2205A on the Concerto, a bit more powerful and better than the 1205A and the 1505, yes, but not near 50% better (as the price would indicate).
* ATI 1505: Airy and warm with extended treble. Images float in a very slight haze. Macrodynamics handled with authority, this amp slams with more force than other sub 200w amps. Can be driven hard, but gets brittle if overdriven. Bass is there, well controlled, but not the equal of the Parasound. Power of the ATI seems necessary for the Concertos.
Summary:
The Parasound or ATI amps provided good midfi sound in the price range of 1.2K, discounted. For a future upgrade, I might contemplate glowing filaments to get entry-level high fidelity. This seems expensive ~$5K (where are those 5 transcendent super compact 150 tube monoblocks that I need to audition ? :-). I may selectively replace channels if I get the scratch.
SUBWOOFERS:Average:
Paradigm 1000/2200, B&W 1000, Velodyne 1015: Not in the same class as more expensive subwoofers.
Sunfire: Amazing bass quantity, but poor quality. I heard it in a couple of setups (one of them including the Monitor Silvers), none with perfect integration. For the small size, the bass was prodigious, but it wasn't the sub for me.Better:
Rel Q100e: The HT Rel seemed natural in a Dyne 1.3MKII setup, but it didn't have very low frequency extension, so it might be disappointing for bone-crunching HT. Nevertheless I enjoyed the overall sound. I was on the verge of buying it - Rels supposedly perfect for Fabers - but the demo unit broke during the audition. This was bad karma, and karma is karma.
M&K MX125: Very nice in the 5700/N805 home theater setup. I enjoyed the M&K sound and easily could have lived with it, too, but it didn't have low frequency authority.
Velodyne FSR12: Very nice bass control - I liked the authority of the servo control and the reasonable form factor. However, the FSR12 does not have low bass. I might have bought it but the dealer would not go even a smidgen below list.
Velodyne HGS/FSR18: Heard it at the Velodyne factory in San Jose (they are really nice people!). Huge air displacement, this one is a face-stomper when bass tones are played through it. I liked the fact that an 18" can move just a little at low velocity to move the same air as a 12" at high velocity. Price was too high for budget.
* Velodyne F1800XR: Took a chance on this at one-call at $937 based on net reviews and the other Velodynes I heard and liked. This is an FSR15 250w AB amp with a first gen F1800/ULD18 woofer with the same servo accelerometer. According to the Velo techs, some might even prefer the AB amp over the class D amp because of softer sound. Very nice performance for a home theater sub, though not as natural timbre as the Rel for music, the lows have a phenomenally clear almost electronic/synthetic/plastic sound (probably lack of higher harmonic distortion). Built in crossover only goes down to 40hz, which might be problematic with full-range main speakers if you wish to avoid using high pass crossovers for the mains. Music integration with the monitor-sized SF Concertos is reasonable.
Summary:
As opposed to main speakers, which seem to have a continuous quality to price curve, subwoofers appear to show a dramatic improvement in quality near $1K.
HOME THEATER PREAMPS:I've run across a few HT preamps, but never all of them at once to make a direct comparison.
Sony TA9000-ES: At one time, I had a Sony TA-9000ES in my system with the ATI amp and Sonus Faber speakers. The overall quality was solid - a heavy 30 lb beast; lots of inputs in the back; software upgradeable; many surprisingly usable cinema DSP modes; convenient touchpad remote. The downsides are many: the DACs are detailed but flat, lacking air; cool touchpad does not learn. And, most importantly and deserving special consideration, the DACs have a funky digital volume control that causes an apparently nonlinear increase in background noise at higher volumes >-25dB, making the 9000ES unlistenable because of hiss on the rear speakers, even on mute! Sony knows about this problem - I talked with a technician and service rep at the San Jose repair center - it appears to be endemic with the preamp/dac. Despite the features and affordability (truly a poor man's Lexicon) and fun DSP features, I would not recommend the 9000ES unless you have a high gain amp >29dB and efficient speakers >87dB (those are the specs for the ATI & SF).
Theta Casanova: Very nice overall and quite upgradeable. I was impressed with the sound and configuration features - it did look every bit the 4.4K list. I heard it for a few hours in a Sonus Faber/Parasound setup. It is a very fine unit, and I might have bought it if I could afford it, but sadly the price didn't fit a $10K budget.
* Classe SSP25: Sonics are outstanding for a 3K mid-fi processor, good detail and extension. Maybe this borders hi-fi. I never compared it directly with the Theta, but both are very musical and I don't recall a preference of one over the other. For pastrami on rye music buffs, you can true analog bypass any one of the digital inputs from one of seven analog inputs. The inputs are relay switched of high quality. The build is very solid, although my dealer demo purchase does have one slightly loose video connector, perhaps due to frequent connector changing at the store. Only three dsp 5ch stereo modes (natural, stadium, club - besides prologic), all usable and terrific, rather than the many dubious DSP modes on your average receiver. Haven't found a need to use the THX mode. This is a very musical, very quiet preamp.
The SSP25 uses the midgrade Crystal 4390 24bit DACs, which shows up in Parasound and Meridian equipment (by searching on the web), together with Crystal 3110 digital volume control. There are several dedicated DD/DTS chips on board, so I'm not expecting a software upgrade for features.
The SSP25 minuses are all related to limited HT support. 1) No on screen display (then again unless you have a switched separate path, OSD can cause video degradation). 2) Only one toslink input (then again if you're an audiophile you probably don't own anything with toslink, though a regular sony schmo like me finds everything toslink). 3) A non-learning remote (but it is made of hefty machined aluminum). 4) limited differential delay between speaker settings (max 8ft in 1ft increments). 5) no "always on" subwoofer for bass management. 6) no remote trigger; 7) no digital out; 8) no 5.1 in; 9) no obvious upgrade path.
Summary:
For the $3K (and often discounted) price, the SSP25 gives nice audio performance. If you're more into home theater and crossover modes/effects, then the Sony might be a better choice if you can live with the background noise and cardboard cutout imaging. Or in a different price range perhaps consider a Theta Casanova (or an EAD Ovation which I never heard, but all the dealers I spoke with say skip the Encore). The Lexicon MC-1 that I heard through 7ch Proceed and Revel Salons had nice air and soundstage, but seemed to lack a slight bit of transparency for such an expensive preamp.
Some random comments on preamps I've never auditioned, and reasons why: The Acurus Act3/Citation 5.0: I'm surprised the manufactures do not put more than 2 Svideo inputs on 2K+ preamps. Parasound AVC1800: Given the specs and pictures and talking with Parasound directly, it appears that the sound quality is probably as good as the AVC2500, which would make the 1800 a reasonable buy at 1.2K retail. Only negatives 1) cheesy faceplate on the AVC 1800; 2) release date in mid-February; 3) no 24/96 even though the Burr Brown 1716 supports it. Aragon Soundstage: already had a nice review here on the asylum - not available at the time to audition and a stretch in my price range; Anthem MC-1, not available for audition/purchase (and still may not be available).
SOURCE:Sony CDP-CX300 and Sony DVP-CX850D: I decided on these for convenience; clearly these are low end pieces. The Sony CDP-CX300 is used as a 300 CD transport and is compatible with home automation control. The CX300 onboard DACs sound thin, so one needs to use the toslink digital out (doesn’t have coaxial). The Sony DVP-CX850D is a 200 DVD player with nice video scan features not found on other brands, but it does not have progressive video output for movie content (requires a DVDO box), and does not have 24/96 output (as does the Pioneer 525). The 850D DACs are reasonable but I still prefer the Classe DACs.
WIRES:About the highly controversial subject of wires, I found the Alphacore Goertz MI2 to be very transparent with little smearing of any frequency, although the bass is not a big as Monster cables. Wires, at least for me, made a reasonable difference in sound. Since wires can't compensate for substandard equipment, I didn't spend more than 10% on wires.
NEW HT SYSTEM (all items bought in the past 6 months):
DVD: Sony DVP-CX850D 200 changer DVD player
CD: Sony CDP-CX300 300 changer CD player
Processor: Classe SSP25
Amplifier: ATI 1505
Speakers: Sonus Faber Concerto x4, front, rear
Sonus Faber Solo center
Velodyne F1800XR subwoofer
Cables: Alphacore Goertz MI2 biwire (front, center)
Tara Klara double run (rear)
Harmonic Technology Crystal Video
Harmonic Technology Precision Links
Monster M550i (for vcrs)
Monster 1000 silver svideo (for vcrs)Cost (including tax):
Speakers, stands, subwoofer: 5.5K
Preamp, amp: 3.3K
DVD+CD player: 0.9K
Wires: 1.2K (some still coming)All items were purchased from local CA dealers that I have visited with the exception of one pair SF Concertos (authorized dealer demo from out-of-state), the F1800XR sold only by one-call, and the Sony DVD & CD players and the Monster cable from authorized mail order houses.
VIDEO:Just a passing comment on video. I'm currently using:
TV: Panasonic 31SF10
VCR: JVC 7200 SVHS
Mitsubushi U67 SVHSI'd like to buy a Sony Wega, but they do not support line doubling to 480p. I hate the 15.75Khz horizontal retrace whine from 480i which disappears when doubled to 480p at 31.5Khz.
You said the Classe is commonly discounted. How much and where (obviously CA). (My choices are the SSP25 and CAV75.)
Hi Bob,Classe has recently changed the face plate styling of the SSP25 (the internals are the same), so I was able to pick up an older face plate demo unit for a really great price from one local dealer (S.F. Stereo). I won't divulge the price out of courtesy to their kindness in pricing :-), but I'd like to point out that sometimes I have received only a small discount on new items, for example, my Sonus Fabers from another local dealer.
You can sometimes find demo or used Classe equipment at Audiogon or JS Audio on the internet (and there are others), but please try to support your local dealer if you use their services. Some folks here seem to pick up outrageous bargains, maybe you might ask them how they shop. Actually that would be a fun thread on its own.
I'm not really comfortable bargaining and don't care about the very last cent. If you find it awkward to bargain like me, perhaps try "I'm really interested in purchasing this item from you, please tell me your best price." The dealer may or may not go down in price, but you'd be suprised what might happen if you appear to be seriously interested.
Good luck, and tell us about your purchases!
Yours,--andy
Very well written.
I bought a pair (need 2 to actively solve room acoustics) of refurbished FSR18 for $1250/ea. When I listen to some music at conversational volumes & a note slowly goes down the scale into the subsonic, a grin is glued to my face as my gut is shaken. I just can't seem to help it (not that I've tried).I bought the Krell KAV-500 to in a sense servo my mains via their patented current-mode feeedback circuitry. At least to voice match the Velodynes.
As far as wire is concerned, I haven't tried Harmonic Technology but keep hearing it's name. Care to tell me more? Like what it did on different systems. FWIW, I liked what the Goertz:Sapphire as a digital conduit & am considering the MI-2 speaker cables but haven't heard them yet. It's either Cardas:Oval, AudioMagic:Sorcerer or them.
I must've listened to a pair of broken SonusFabers:Concertos because the ones I heard had the image was painted on the grill cloth & sounded just as thin. Gorgeously flat frequency response, though. Unfortunately, so was the dynamic response flat & not in a good way, either. I thought it may've been the set up & switched amps from a McIntosh to a Bryston. Unfortunately, the store only had XLO cables. So, I couldn't swap them. It occured to me that they may be broken (since I just left a broken KEF RDM2 tweeter). So, I put in my music Test CDR & the pair matched. They must've both broken.
In the same store, I did like the ViennaAcoustic:Beethovens matched with a REL:Storm II. That was cool! Great match! Albeit, small sweet spot.
BTW, I was equally surprised at your appaisal of the DM302s. They are abismally shy of even midbass but I found them clean unlike most Paradigm speakers (studio & actives are better) I've heard. I wonder if the ones you listened to were broken in, because they are my budget recommendations (4 DM302s & 1 CC3 & 2 Velodyne CT-80).
I'm envious of your twin subwoofer combination of FSR18's. Judging from the tremendous output from my F1800XR, which has a smaller amp, your setup must be a real treat on Starship Troopers, Fifth Element, and the Professional. I had considered buying another subwoofer to balance left and right, but alas my room size simply does not allow it. To compensate for the lack of subwoofer fun, I now have a Paradigm X-30 active crossover with variable phase (!) on order for $120 that I want to play around with.About wires, I'm not much of a wire zealot. In my youth, I knew wires were different, now that I am older and stupider, I actually bought those expensive wires, and when I'm truly cash-flush and senile, you'll see me sporting some biwire Goertz AG-3. To give you a frame of reference, about 8 years ago, I purchased some Tara Labs Analog Standard and some Kimber brand that they probably don't make anymore, along with some Monster Interlink. I found that the Tara Labs was the darkest and quietest of the cables, the Kimber seemed neutral, and the Monster Interlink was dark, thin and awkward. Cables out of the box were sometimes better than those Interlinks (though with worse shielding). That was my wire experience until 6 months ago.
When I was shopping around, I heard all the great things about the Harmonic Tech cables, so I decide to check out the Precision Links, which are the polyethylene version of the Truth Links. I found that the sound was smooth and the overall balance was neutral - not rich, not thin, and certainly not dynamic range "whitened". Another cable, the Monster 550I, also had great reviews. The 550I has strands individually insulated with MicroFiber dielectric. The 550I was rich in harmonics. Neutral, no, precise, no, but pleasurable, yes. If I had to reoutfit my entire system with Monster 550I, I wouldn't mind, but I think I would care if I bought tube amps. For me, I would like a cable with the Monster 550I richness and the Harmonic Tech pureness.
Speaker cables caused a larger difference in sound for me. The Monster speaker cables that I had tried were the low end non-MicroFiber cables. They had big bloated bass and smeared highs, causing integration problems with the Concertos and the F1800XR. The well regarded Tara Klara sounds thinner and more clear than the Monsters. The Goertz MI2 was remarkably different - very clear, very transparent. The bass bloat was gone, along with the subwoofer integration problems. I now have the MI2 biwiring my front & center.
I don't understand why the Concertos performed so poorly in your audition, perhaps it was the source or broken speakers. I've always found the Concertos cast significant air and space with good amplification (they can sound flat on a receiver). On rock and HT, the Concertos can sound muted, perhaps that's the flat effect that you heard.
I am familiar with the B&W 302s, having heard them for 2 weeks on my old audio system including a Magnavox CDB650/PS-Audio 4.6/Proton D1200 amp. They sounded reasonable at the store, but when I brought them back home in a near field setup, I started noticing a vague coarseness to the timbre, much like my Accord stock stereo, something not present in my JBL L20Ts. I called up the B&W dealer and he told me to break it in for 2 weeks. I did. But even after that time, the timbre was nowhere near as smooth and as pleasant as the L20Ts. The highs didn't have the purity of the L20T titanium tweeters. I suspect the paper cones were not well made (and lest you think I'm a polypro bigot, the Concertos have a paper cone based driver made by Vifa). Maybe I had a bad batch of 302s. Disillusioned, I returned them and raised my $2K HT budget to $10K. Later that year, I bought a demo Classe SSP25 from the same dealer.
Anyhow, these are some neophyte opinions... I really haven't been looking at audio equipment that long. Happy listening for the new year!
Yours,--andy
Audio Magic: has a sound which is fast (a tad faster than Kimber but slower than Goertz) but very tame. All the details are there (more extended HFs & LFs beyond Kimber), but like virtually no more?! [I'm bad at these discriptions. Please, bare with me.] The sound is almost tube like in its lack of grain. You can get this on the Excaliber IIs for cheap. Spell Caster II's drop the noise floor to reveal more details. Sorcerer focuses the detailed image with extraordinary holographic depth.I tried a Monster Cable M950. I found the cable was very neutral, but sounded like it processed the sound. It rendered a "this is recorded" type feel to it. The details lost all of their spontaneous impact.
If only everyone had the opportunity to demo like this eh? I demo like mad as well but it teaches you a lot about the various companies. I'd also bet you experience zero buyers remorse. enjoy.
Thanks! I definitely agree that auditioning lots of equipment gives peace of mind in the equipment choice.However, ignorance is sometimes bliss :-), and perhaps I really shouldn't listen to all that expensive audio equipment because then I'll start wanting it. Sadly, it's too late for me and I am already thinking tubes...
Unfortunately, I couldn't find a 5.1 tube pre/pro. I was looking. The soluton was superior but affordable. That is a Meridian w/ external 24k tube DACs.$$$, restricted my tube fix to headphones. The path is cleaner anyway.
Think about it - digital+tubes, hmmm, oil+water, hmmm, Haydn+Rob. Naaahhh.
Yes, I did a load of thinking about it betwixt a whole lot of listening. It was exactly what I found missing in 5.1 channel sound. That's precisely what I was searching for. But like I said before, it would require a Meridian w/ 3 external tube DACs.I did an exhaustive search. The closest thing was a new BAT coming out that had all 3 fronts tubed for $10k.
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