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In Reply to: First of all, forget the 42"... posted by Hepcat on November 21, 2003 at 14:20:18:
No HDTV in the UK.
Follow Ups:
No HDTV in UK? But what about compatibility with future Hi-Def DVD?
Until Sky makes the move to HDTV I think the UK is out of luck. I haven't heard any major talk from either the BBC or Sky about HDTV.Scaler based dvd players are an option. I designed a player that offers 480i, 480p, 720p, 1080i, and PAL that is all user selectable. But you have to have a market for the product. The only thing that looks promising for the UK is 720p (maybe). You have to understand PAL is not a bad looking format compared to NTSC. But you also have to understand all programing is packaged under Sky for the most part and they have no intensions of expanding at this present time. Once Sky makes the move I'm sure you'll see more and more tv sets offer optional resolution input formats.
Alan
Since this would be a long term purchase (I've had my current Sony windescreen TV for over ten years) it should really have compatibility with future formats in mind. The Fuji has component video inputs and I was thinking about buying a line doubler/scaler thingy - can get one for around £700, Silicon Image I think is the brand name - which could do both Sky for TV and my current DVD player which doesn't do progressive scan (Pioneer DV717).Mind you, the newest Pioneer has HDMI.....
I have to say I'm still worried about what choice to make! But am leaning towards the Fuji as I know I can get local support.
Ok...you should not need a scaler for the plasma display. Most come with very good internal scalers. I have compared the Silicon Image products and the scaler inside my NEC was superior.As for contrast ratio's....try to find something around 1500:1. Anything higher is unrealistic. Remember you are still going to calibrate the display to 6500K. Black level is still poor with the technology compared to a direct view monitor.
The NEC accepts all resolution formats. It will scale the format to the native resolution of the display. It has component rca and bnc connectors, composite, s-video, and dvi.
Alan
internal scalers: I did wonder about that, but my local specialist told me the Fuji didn't have one and he wasn't aware of any plasmas available that did have one.... is he lying?Mind you, he's a much, much more informed buy than the rival shop down the street who demoed me a Panasonic 42" plasma with some £1k scaler fitted before it to "improve" the picture and, when I asked them to remove it so I could see the difference, dicovered absolutely *no* difference whatsoever. All they could say was "if you look on the Gladiator DVD, which I can't find at the moment, then it's much more obvious what the scaler is doing" but despite which I could clearly see the speckles of noise in the black when I stuck my face up close to the display. Very disappointing.
I've now got a shortlist of the Fuji 50" and the Pioneer 50", either the 503 (cheaper) or the 504 (potentially better, but with garish black surround). I even emailled Pioneer UK and asked where I could see the new models, but their reply was simply that they were to be released at the end of November, and so I couldn't see them anywhere (which doesn't explain how a really, really poor shop in Tottenham Court road managed to have a 42" one three weeks ago, nor how Selfridges could have a 42" one on the wall on Friday night). Ultimately it means the ones in this country have probably been handed over to reviewers to drool over, and preferred stores like Selfridges and Harrods to stick on their walls, and there's no chance I'll get one by Xmas if I order now... :(
Let's take a different tack. The new Pioneer has an HDMI input. If I stick with Component inputs as are provided on the Fuji, am I going to lose out? At least, not until ten years time when we get hologram TVs from MitsuiFujiSonysonic?
Yeah he's lying or doesn't understand his product.Once you narrow the display down to 1 or 2 units contact a plasma broker. I purchased my unit that way and was very satisfied with the service and transaction. A broker will also talk price to make the sale.
Alan
If not, someone needs to tell them their clowns are loose. You might want to see if there's a reward.The Fujitsu should have a DVI input. If not, it's probably a 2002 or earlier model. The 2003s have DVI-HDCP inputs.* In the video department, DVI and HDMI are more or less the same. HDMI adds the capability of digital audio and some control signals (so components can talk to each other) -- not much to gain for a display: it's more geared towards linking source components and/with receivers/processors. For the most part, DVI-HDCP vs HDMI ends in a tie for displays.
That said, when true 1920x1080p displays become available, HDMI has the bandwidth for this resolution. Single-link DVI will handle 1080i and 720p resolution, what's available today, quite easily. There are currently no native 1080p sources and no native 1080p plasmas. Samsung, LG Electronics and Fujitsu may change that in late 2004. Rest assured, prices for these 70"+ plasmas will start at about $20k, so start fasting now.
If you have a DVI capable DVD player, you can get a DVI-to-HDMI cable from Panasonic for $40US. All of the digital video will be transferred to the display. I think the HDMI-to-HDMI cables, for DVD players that will have an HDMI output, will run about $50US.
* Fujitsu: DVI-HDCP on current modelsHD model
http://www.plasmavision.com/P42VHA20US.htmlED model
http://www.plasmavision.com/P42HHA10WS.html
Joe, thanks for your help on this. I don't plan to route digital audio to the display so there's no worries about HDMI versus DVI; would just be using the plasma as display, although with a couple of small speakers tacked onto the side for when I'm watching TV as I don't want to fire up the full hi-fi experience for, say, the BBC news.Just one final question - does the AVM processor in the Fuji essentially do the job of the Silicon Image iScan line doubler, or would that still have a worthwhile impact on the lower-quality programme from Sky TV?
I really can't tell you which processor would win in a shootout. The DVDO units are well respected for the job that they do and the capabilities that they have. But Fujitsu's AVM processor is just as respected. Unless you can do a side by side comparison or find someone who has or had both to compare, there's just no way of knowing.You can interpret the meaning of this for yourself, but I searched on AVS forum with several combinations of fujitsu, iscan and dvdo for an interval of the last 6 months. I only found one person who asked about using one with his Fujitsu plasma: there were no responses, despite the fact that several members on AVS own Fujitsu plasmas.
It sounds like SKY is a turd. And as you should know, polishing a turd doesn't change the fact that it's still a turd no matter how hard or how long you polish it. If you insist on trying to make it look good, the only way that illusion is going to work is to feed it what it was designed for -- a 27" - 36" direct view CRT.
We also have SKY digital down here.It's no more a turd than the small dish/MPEG2 based systems you have in the US.
:P
If your display device has RGB capability, SKY digital can look pretty good. Even on 50" plasmas.
cheerio
just to add...the differences between the scalers (if any) will be very small. Today's plasma units offer very good internal scaling. I have tried the DVDO and Focus Enhancements products on my display and saw very little difference. The NEC was superior to the DVDO, while the Focus Enhancement was slightly superior with the 852 x 480 format. The enhancements were so small that I put the scaler up for sale and now use the NEC as the main unit.The trick to a great plasma image is clean ac. Filtered ac can do wonders for a plasma video image. Of late I have been involved with a OEM project for a scalable dvd player. I was very impressed with the 1080i output into the NEC. The big selling point for me was the sharper image and color saturation. A couple of days ago I just put the finishing touches on a new power conditioner design I have been working on for 120-240v applications. Prior to the power conditioner the OEM player surpassed a EAD TheaterVision dvd player I have in house that uses DVDO progressive outputs. After I added the power conditioner the EAD was the equal to the OEM model. The image was sharper, more dimensional, and had improved color saturation. My point is there are lots of ways to improve the image besides scaling.
Alan
Ok, that's fair enough. Actually, I forgot to note another reason for considering the iScan scaler/line doubler would be to convert from various sources - Svideo, SCART, even composite - into component so there is only one run of cable snaking its' way through my rafters and down to where the plasma is going to hang from (it'll be hanging over the fireplace from the ceiling).
you are not worried about component video with a plasma display, the important issue is that your input video source matches the display native resolution. the nice thing about using the internal scaler is that it will convert your video source to the native resolution. if you want to purchase a scaler then i suggest something like a nrs that matches the native resolution. any old scaler like a dvdo will not match the native resolution. one of the big things we did with the dvd player is we made sure we covered plasma resolutions. right now we offer 852 x 480 standard via the dvi output. our component allows you to flip between 480p, 720p, and 1080i. most outboard scalers only output 600 x 480m (typical dvdo circuit).alan
Last I heard, NEC's DVI input didn't accept an HDCP signal. That could be a real bummer if you tried to use one of the better DVD players with a DVI-HDCP or HDMI output.
I use dvi into the tv all the time with no problems. HDCP is more for set top boxes in the US. Anyone in the UK will not have to deal with those issues. DVI and SDI are formats not offered over here in Europe. Matter of fact I haven't even seen a really high quality sat receiver that offers multiple video connections. The digibox used by Sky is at least 5 or 6 years behind what we are selling in the states. The biggest issue over here is the scart connector. Pending the design of the component you can offer RGB in/out, composite in/out, and audio in/out signals. It's rare to see any other type of connection used in a a/v system. I use a scart to composite adapter because my digibox only offers composite out.Alan
Except for a scarce few, the majority of DVD players that offer a DVI output also send an HDCP signal out of the DVI port. If you don't have an HDCP compliant display, you're out of luck getting a digital connection.In the US, HDCP is not too much of a concern for STBs at this time for HDTV content. However, when the encryption gets turned on -- and it will be, there will be a wave of crying from owners of non-compliant displays.
It all depends on the connection. Our Stealth DVD Player is Non-HDCP via the dvi output. I also provide a scalable component bnc output. To be honest I see very little difference between the dvi and scalable component. 1080i looks great from both outputs.Alan
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