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In Reply to: Questions on projectors.... posted by Bob C on January 06, 2004 at 16:31:59:
The revolution in Front Projection over the last few years is with digital systems (DLP and LCD are the two most popular ways of doing digital FP, but there's a couple of others too).They are basically universal video displays; they'll show just about any video signal plugged into them. You can plug a DVD player straight into them (either they'll have component rca plugs just like a TV or they'll have a computer type input plug...that can take component video, you just need an adapter pig-tail to adapt the 3 rca ends of a component video cable to the kind of plug-in used on the projector).
The projectors will often have multiple inputs and multiple types of inputs. For example, most will take an S-Video plug and a composite video plug as well as component (either through rca's or with an adapter) as well as a computer type plug-in, like your computer's monitor would use.
This means they are very flexible for what they'll display. You can take your regular digital camera and plug it straight into the composite input on the FP and show just taken pictures straight from your camera ; you can plug your computer into it and serf the web on a huge scale ; you could plug a Sony Playstation or Nintendo directly into the machine and it'll show the game ; you can plug your DVD player into the projector, ....component (or DVI connection is the latest/best) video connection is best, but can also use S-Video or composite video cable from the DVD player.
No FP I know of has an on-board TV tuner. This means you'll need some way of tuning the TV and changing channels etc.., . A simple VCR will work fine (cost around $100 brand new for an OK VCR),..the VCR's have a TV tuner, plug the VCR into the Projector and use the VCR to change channels (over the air broadcast with rabbit ears/antenna or can have cable plugged into the VCR).
Front Projector is also capable of enough resolution to handle HDTV signals. Many HDTV signals can be picked up with just an antenna on the roof, you'd just need a HDTV tuner box (the HDTV satellite receiver box usually has an on-board tuner for taking over-the-air HDTV and regular analogue over-the-air signals. you could buy the HDTV satellite receiver box and not bother with the satellite dish, just using these other features. The Tonight Show or sports picked up by an HDTV tuner with just an antenna on the roof will look better than the best DVD.
Another big advantage of Front Projectors is that they'll take North American Video standard signals (NTSC),...but also will display video standards from other parts of the world (PAL, SEACAM). This means they can display DVD's from other parts of the world without having to convert them to NTSC. Basically an international TV for free. Some DVD players will convert PAL to NTSC, but this is better because you can plug any DVD signal into the projector and watch in the native format without conversion.
Being able to show all these different kinds of video means that switching between sources is a need. You can plug all the individual sources into the projector (number and type of input varies, but there's usually 3 or 4 inputs) and switch between them at the projector. Or you can have just one cable feeding the projector and everything else plugged into a box that'll switch between them.
Some receivers will handle all the video switching for you. For example, the Denon 3803 (under $1K new) will switch between component signals and it'll also up-convert S-Video/composite signals and output them to the projector via a component video connection.
As you can see the Front Projector is a hugely flexible display. You can plug the DVD player into it,...you could also plug your computer or laptop directly into it (even use this to play the movies), you can plug your digital camera into it for an instant slide-show,...a VCR, the video output from a cable box, from international video displays like a PAL DVD player etc. etc.
One thing to keep in mind is that you don't get sound (except sometimes a tiny and useless speaker that you should consider as not there, even if it is). So you'll need to send the sound from the DVD/VCR/Cable Box/Computer to some kind of amp/speakers. This could be as cheap as a $50 vintage receiver and $10 vintage speakers from Goodwill/Ebay. The digital projectors are a video display, they'll show just about anything you care to plug into them, but they don't have a TV tuner (use VCR/Cable Box/HDTV receiver to change channels).
Not long ago you could spent up to $100,000 on a CRT front projection system that was big/bulky and needed professional set-up/alignment and maintenance and 3 expensive bulbs to be regularly changed. For very little money (relatively), you can get *very* close to the same level of performance (better in many cases) in a tiny, easier to use box.
I know one local guy that had his mother sew King size bed sheets together and tack this to the outside of the house.... and he sets the projector/DVD player on a table in the yard for summer-time outdoor movies for friends, neighbors and family. This is great fun and trivial to do with a digital projector (just need an extension cord run out the window for AC power and you are away.
Bulb life varies from 1000 to 3000 hours on the digital projectors and a bulb costs around $300 or $400. If used for movies only, 2000 hours is many, many movies (2 years for most people, I'd guess...). But it might well be worth keeping the old 27" TV to watch Opera Winfrey/Dr. Phil and save the bulb for movies/sports .
With $10,000 plasma displays, owners measure the screen in inches, with 60" being HUGE. A $1000 front projector owner measures his screen in FEET. Watching Lawrence of Arabia in 8FT widescreen picture in the bedroom is just great (small and light, I can switch my projector quickly from bedroom to living room) and no regular TV and hope to compete with the experience.
Watching the World Cup soccer games on 8ft x 6ft screen was also great. Also, concert video's are great with the performer singing in front of you that's about the size they'd be if you were right up front in an actual concert (Stop Making Sense and the Elvis Return TV special are favorites,...the Diana Krall in Paris and DIVA's Live are good for reference display, though I enjoy the others more for content :-)
If buying a new TV or doing a home-theatre, a digital front projector is not the *only* way to go,...but they MUST be looked at and highly considered.
- Projector Central - decent site,...check their top theatre projector list and reviews... (Open in New Window)
Follow Ups:
> If buying a new TV or doing a home-theatre, a digital front
> projector is not the *only* way to go,...but they MUST be looked at
> and highly considered.Agreed. Personally I'm sick to death of hearing about plasma screens... and quite honestly, the price tags scare me. They look good, but not THAT good for that size. Rear projection looked good to me for a while, but I came to the same conclusions as Mike Dzurko that having a 250lb monster with no resale and no upgrade potential doesn't make much sense... especially when it costs more than a decent projector and screen combo capable of higher resolution and size. I also dreaded moving something that large into place and then dragging it with me when I eventually move. For some reason I'm more inclined to cut a hole in my ceiling to install the projector than worry about lugging a monolith around five years from now. That said, front projection looks like the best option out there right now.
I've been an addict of AVSForum for a while now and, though I'm a big fan of the Sanyo Z1 and Z2, I've become far more curious about the CRT projectors. Apparently with the onset of the smaller digital front projectors, CRT prices are coming down a great deal and some real bargains are out there. If you check out some of the CRT sections, there are some serious die-hard enthusiasts for the older technology. They claim a far better picture in terms of color and contrast as well as resolution, often at the same cost or less than digital. I've also heard that the lamps last longer than those on the digital projectors, so operating costs are about the same (considering three lamps vs. one).
Honestly, I feel they have some good points. I have both an LCD flat panel display and a CRT monitor for my computers at work and I still prefer watching on the CRT. That and it's a time tested technology that has survived a long time for one big reason... it works and it works well. But how does this translate to projectors?
My big fear about CRT projectors is that the owners are just following the analog party line... as much as I love vinyl and even though it can sound better than digital media (if the gear is properly set up and maintained), more often than not it seems to be personal bias and "vinyl fever". Is it the same with CRT projectors? How much tweaking and maintenance is required for vastly better contrast and picture quality over digital? How much of it is just the joy of being the underdog defending the old guard?
Trust that I appreciate quality a lot and that I'm not against spending some time to get things right, but it has to be balanced against convenience. That said, I'm still looking into CRT as a future option and think it might still be the way to go.
Monk:What a great post. As a new front projector convert myself, I heartily agree. At the beginning of Dec I was all set to buy a large RPTV. Instead, I decided to jump into the front PJ world and am I glad I did! My Z1 on a 102" Carada screen looks very good indeed. Two of the things that swayed my mind were one, the easy path of future upgrades. If I'd bought that 65" RPTV, I was pretty much stuck with it. Pretty difficult to sell AND move a 250 pound monster. With the projector, I figure it will be quite easy to sell on audiogon or ebay 6-24months down the road if I want to get a better one. The other real feature is that the projector takes up almost no space in the room (hangs from my ceiling). The screen only sticks out about 1" from the wall. When on, it is kind of like having a 102" plasma:)
Yes,...my cousins bought a Z1 and have been delighted with it. I'm currently using a Sharp PGM-M20X (on 2nd bulb, changed first after 2000 hours) and had an NEC LT-150 before that. It was actually seeing the LT-150 that led my cousins to buy the Z1. The LT-150 was good, but a little loud and no zoom - other than that, not much to complain about (well, 1000 hour bulb life on the NEC is not the best either I suppose).And I know what you mean with the 65" RPTV,...the pictures are often great, but who wants one of those monsters dominating the room or moving them around. The RPTV dominates a room that a FP could invisibly (literally with some installations) blend into the room,...I like it :-)
Monk,What an outstanding post - thanks so much. It is exactly what I needed, while I had a sense of individual components, this pulls it all together. I am in the middle of constructing a HT room in my basement (it will still be a couple of months till its done) and I'm trying to gather all the info I can get. After 35 years of 2 channel, this is new stuff with me.
Funny you mention the Denon 3803, it is the receiver I have my eyes on (available for under $700 at at least 1 authorized dealer). I've been thinking of FP (DLP), the two units I have my eyes on are the Sanyo Z2 or the Panasonic L500U. I'm thinking of a Dish satellite, although cable may be a choice. I certainly will go w/ HD.
I guess when I start assembling the gear it will all come together. My knowledge of display units are based on a 15+ year old 27" TV and a 10+ year old VCR. Component, S-Video, DVI, etc. are all foreign to me. My old brain may overload, but thanks for the great overview!!
Bob, Have you seen the Z2 and the AE500?
They looked very different to me.
I think you'll be glad you chose FP.
I've been involved with FP for a couple years
and will be happy to try and answer any questions you have.
Just a clarification...both those projectors you stated are LCD units...not DLP.
Hello Bob, I'm happy to hear the post helped (and that you didn't mind my often terrible spelling :-)As far as the connections etc., just get a progressive scan DVD player and use a component video connection to the display. Progressive DVD players are so common now it's hard to buy one that doesn't have it - At most you should need an adapter cable to adapt the regular cable to the type of plug/input used on the projector/display. You can order a cable online that'll have the 3 rca's for the component connection to the DVD player on one end and the kind of plug your projector needs on the other (looks like the plug that goes into your computer monitor) - though more and more projectors have the regular rca inputs for the component. Either way it's the same signal, just a matter of physically getting it plugged in.
> Funny you mention the Denon 3803, it is the receiver I have
> my eyes onWhile the 3803 is probably a bit better, I got the 1804 and feel it is a little better deal. The DA convertors may not be quite what the 3803 has, but I honestly doubt many people would be able to tell much of a difference. The other good part is that it handles plenty of AV switching... 2 component ins and 4 S/Composite ins. Slightly lower wattage and "only", but it's plenty loud. Also, it's "only" 6.1 instead of 7.1, but last time I checked the standard recorded on media was 5.1. The 1804 is about $200-300 cheaper than the 3803 and is now slouch on features comparitively. You might want to check it out before you go overboard.
Check out the back panel of the 1804 .
A few things strike me,...first is that the back panel says the 1804 is rated to drive speakers rated at 6 ohms and above Vs. the 3803 can handle 4 ohm speakers. Driving 5, 6 or 7 speakers is tough work and there's real value in having a more robust current handling ability (this is just not more watts, it's able to handle a tougher electrical load at the same watt level).Second, ...the 1803 can do video switching with component inputs - But can it up-convert S-Video and Composite to Component and thus output all video signals to the display via a single connection? I have a projector 20 feet from the electronics and it's far nicer having a single high quality component cable running from the Denon 3803 to the projector. With most comparable receivers, and I'd guess all less expensive ones, including the 1804, I don't think you get this feature (prior to the 3803 you had to buy the 5800 flagship series to get the S-Video/Composite up-conversion to component video compatability). Note that the up-conversion just allows all the signals to go out on the component line, the S-Video picture would still be S-Video quality, not component.
Finally there's the question of video bandwidth,...I liked HDTV video routed through a 3803 more than through the 3802 and the difference was probably the wider bandwidth video handling ability of the 3803.
In many instances and installations I agree with you, for many, many situations, lots of owners would be just as pleased with one of these Denon's as the other. But there are situations where the difference is worth springing for (demanding speakers, higher-end video displays in the system etc.).
Bo
> the back panel says the 1804 is rated to drive speakers rated at 6
> ohms and above Vs. the 3803 can handle 4 ohm speakers. Driving 5, 6
> or 7 speakers is tough work and there's real value in having a more
> robust current handling ability (this is just not more watts, it's
> able to handle a tougher electrical load at the same watt level).Are you sure the 3803 can handle 4 ohms? I looked on the picture and in the specs and it seems to be marked as 6-16 ohms as well. If it can handle 4 ohms then there is value in the 3803 over the 1804 if you own 4 ohm speakers; however, if you're driving 8 ohm speakers (the vast majority of speakers on the market) then you're going to see no advantage there. As for the current handling, I believe both receivers use separate amps for each channel. The 3803 has higher wattage capabilities (110W @ 8 ohms vs. 90W @ 8 ohms for the 1804) and will probably sound slightly cleaner at higher volumes, but not $200 cleaner.
> can it up-convert S-Video and Composite to Component and thus output
> all video signals to the display via a single connection?In a word, no. I just checked out the 1804 manual and it says quite plainly that neither the compsite/S signal nor the component signals are interchangeable. In that, the 3803 has an advantage over the 1804. Good point on that one!
OK,...I could have the Denon 3803 4 ohm specification mixed up (?)I had a look at the online website and couldn't see a picture of the back. The online manual showed 6 to 16 ohm rating with all channels driven. They do rate power at 4 ohms, even at 2 ohms for stereo sound. But they may do the same for the 1804 (I only looked at the picture of the back and what was stated there, not at the 1804 pdf manual).
Even if I'm not mistaken (and I'll presume I'm wrong until I find out something concrete), I still would agree with your basic point, i.e., for very many users the 2 receivers would be equally good. And this being the case many people would enjoy having the extra hundreds neatly tucked into the wallet (where they belong !). And if I am mistaken, the same point would apply, only more so.
If I have made a mistake on the specs, sorry.
> If I have made a mistake on the specs, sorry.No apology needed! We're just sharing info, monk!
Also, I checked around and the lowest price I could find on the 3803 was $999. If anyone can snag it for $700 from an authorized dealer, I couldn't argue with that at all.
> I still would agree with your basic point, i.e., for very many users
> the 2 receivers would be equally good. And this being the case many
> people would enjoy having the extra hundreds neatly tucked into the
> wallet (where they belong!)Very true... unfortunately most of my friends don't agree and MUST have the best even though their rooms don't allow for it (my friend has a 12' x 8' home theatre room with all of this high end equipment crammed into it to the point of suffocation. It's hurts to hold my tongue after trying to make the point, but to each his own.
The 3803 can be had for $698.06 from 6Ave.com. The website lists the unit at $999.00 - call them (877-684-2831) and ask for the Denon 3803 deal. It is brand new (not refurbished) from an authorized dealer for $698.00 + .06 for shipping.
...only because I bought a bunch of other gear at the same time including a 34" 16:9 Sony XBR. If you can get the 3803 alone for $700, thats an awesome deal! Also, I needed the upconvert to component video feature and the 3803 was the only game in town at a reasonable price.
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