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In Reply to: HD DVD/ Blu RayEarly adopters beware... posted by nunderwood on March 19, 2006 at 15:29:14:
DVD players do not play back CD with a 650nm (visible red) laser anymore. A few did at first, but even the cheapest models have dual lasers now. They use a second 780nm (IR) laser diode focused through the same lens, or sometimes a separate lens alltogether.Blu-Ray players will add a third laser; they will not be reading CDs with a 405nm laser, they'll use a 780nm laser.
And, must I remind you that SACDs *ARE DVDs*.
Sample rates are not changing. Frequencies are still operating off of the same fundamentals and multiples. The clocking shouldn't be any more of an issue than it is with current players.
If for some reason you believe that having a 405nm laser in the same chassis as a 780nm and 650nm laser will somehow cause degraded audio or video, I am *sure* that someone is willing to sell you a green pen which will clear that right up.
Follow Ups:
Hi Michi, As we both know the vast majority of optical disc players these days use a DVD transport so it went without saying that we are dealing with a dual laser/dual focus be it CD, DVD or Universal. I believe in your haste to debunk the position stated you made no comment on the specified issue, that being the quality of CD Red Book playback on players marketed as DVD or Universal. Granted CD playback has come a long way on DVD/Universal players but a current dedicated CD or CD/SACD player with no DVD-V/A capabilities will soundly trounce a DVD/Universal. It has taken the better part of a decade for CD's to sound decent on these DVD drives but only for the most part on dedicated players. So one laser, two lasers, 10 lasers, clocking issues/non-issues, the point is it may take some time for backwards NTSC DVD compatibility on the HD-DVD/Blu Ray players to reach a level of performance we would expect for our current DVD collections. SACD's are DVD's! Really? Thank goodness I've been informing our clients accordingly for the past 4 years. Wouldn't want to sell an Esoteric X-01 and not know what I'm talking about! Fear Uncertainty and Doubt, please, not this guy. I embrace new technology but with my eyes and ears wide open, thank you!
The next gen players will equal all but the best of today's DVD player's capabilities in regards to DVD playback. A lot has been learned since the DVD format's inception and from the DVD format itself (optical disc video technology).There's lots of new technology and plenty of horsepower under those next gen hoods and I'm willing to bet that some of it will actually be used for the video. :-)
And yes, SACDs are DVDs.
> > a current dedicated CD or CD/SACD player with no DVD-V/A capabilities will soundly trounce a DVD/Universal < <This is not even remotely a hard-and-fast rule. I have a universal player with DVD-V/A capabilities that will "soundly trounce" the CD playback of most CD and/or CD/SACD players on the market.
It appears the recurring pattern on internet forums, not just this particular site, is one of nit picking, inaccurate reading between the lines and an over all "I know more than the other guy" approach. Being in the business of consulting and selling high end A/V gear as well as 30 plus years of enjoying this hobby leads me to believe that my attempts on this forum to help and assist are simply a case of barking up the wrong tree. In order to win the confidence of my clients I see no need to thump my own chest with recitals of laser lengths and sampling rates despite having a more than adequate knowledge of the technical side of audio/video. If I were to conduct myself in this manner I don't believe our business would have been voted top A/V retailer in the city.
This last post was the last straw.
As a current owner of a Pioneer DV563A Universal I am well aware that there are SOME exceptions to my suggestions but these exceptions are far and few between. As with our friend, Michi, the point seems to be lost or misconstrued... at no point are my suggestions "hard and fast rules". In fact, where in my posts do I suggest that? I love an intelligent debate but I believe I will limit my future communications to my friends and clients, existing and prospective. The internet is a wonderful tool but as is always the case the tool is only as effective as it's user...now THAT is a hard and fast rule! Good luck!
> > In fact, where in my posts do I suggest that? < <In the post to which I replied, wherein you made a non-equivocal statement. And now you're upset, and threatening to abandon internet forums because you think we should have understood what you MEANT, as opposed to what you SAID. I think you should make good on your threat.
Hi Racerguy et al,You may be right in that I may need to spell out in a meticulous fashion my viewpoints and suggestions. I just didn't think that long winded elaborations are suited in these environments but here I go...
I do enjoy the banter back and forth on our hobby. My concern was based on responses that really don't address the meat and potatoes of postings in general, not just my contributions, mis-understandings are part and parcel of this form of communication. For example, my admittedly sarcastic reference to "DVD's are SACDs...really", of course I am aware since their inception that SACD needs the storage capacity of a Digital Versatile Disc but the posting from Joe Jr seems to intimate that I wasn't clear on this issue and he good naturedly is providing reassurance. But whatever... the key to these forums is exchanging experiences and precedent based knowledge to enhance the enjoyment of the media and provide guidance on equipment/media acquisition and proper set up of same. No acrimony here...do I have to take my marbles and go home or can I still play?
Anytime the electronics industry takes a big step, it's taking a risk. It's a gamble that the direction the companies head in will either dig a financial hole too deep to climb out of or be a huge money-maker like DVD has been. And as a consumer, dealer or distributor, we all share in the gain or loss from that journey.Your concern seems more focused on the hardware, probably due to the fact that early DVD players were somewhat less than stellar at CD playback. While I agree that's an honest concern, I don't think you have to worry about them screwing up like before. When the DVD format came out, it was pretty much the industry's first step into an optical format combining audio and video. It was a learning experience for the hardware manufacturers as well as the software designers. In effect, early adopters really were guinea pigs -- not on purpose, but because the industry was taking such a leap.
You can call me overly optimistic, but I don't think that many of the mistakes the industry made with hardware and software at DVD's inception are going to be repeated. Yes, I'm sure there will be glitches here and there, but that's to be expected when anything new comes out. There's bound to be bugs to work out, but nothing that can't be fixed in short order. And as for horrid playback of CDs or DVDs, I'm sure the lesson was learned with DVD. As I said before, much has been learned from the DVD format and even more has been learned since the DVD format's launch. Believe it or not, many of the technologies and features that will be present in the next gen format were being worked on before DVD even came about.
The next year is going to be very interesting: certainly lots of scrambling and confusion in the first few months. Perhaps the naysayers will be right and it will be a grand mess that never sorts itself out. Or maybe it will be a grand finale for what will probably be the last optical disc format produced for distribution. I'm leaning toward the latter.
Couldn't have said it better myself. At the end of the day we need to keep people interested in quality audio/video. Unfortunately, and I occasionally fall into this trap, we get too wrapped up in the equipment & set-up and forget about the emotional involvement and enjoyment of the music and/or film. The HD DVD and Blu ray roll out has distracted those in-the-know and have confused the general population that have a slightly more than passing interest. The immediate result has been a dramatic decline in sales for mid to high performance disc players and that is a crime because we have currently have the best crop of Universal, CD/SACD and dedicated CD players in the history of the industry. These players may be passed up and discontinued because of the current state of affairs and that, again, is a crime. My suggestion is, if there is a desire to upgrade disc players, buy one of the better performers available now( 2ch Marantz Reference SA15/SA11, Esoteric,multi ch DV7600/DV9600 etc) and keep your existing DVD player for the next year or so.
So at the end of the day let's hope that the HD DVD/Blu Ray rolls out successfully and that the industry taps into the audio-only capabilities(granted hi rez available only through HDMI with respective HDMI inputs of AVR/pre-pro) AND that the backwards compatibility eventually includes SACD as well as non compromised NTSC DVD playback. Here's a thumbs up( and fingers crossed!) to an interesting year and keep enjoying the music!
Michi pointed out the shortcoming of underwood's rationale, but I agree that units often don't do as good a job with backward compatiability.For example, my HDTV and as well as my son's HDTV, stuggle playing non-HD channels --be it off the air or from DVD.
There's no guarantee that normal CD and DVD will play well on the new HD players. The players may use cheaper lasers for the CD and DVDs, or the processing may not be a good as a good DVD player.
Also, the buyer needs to be aware that almost always the first generation of anything new is: expensive, lacks features, and often doesn't sound as good as the next generation.
The first Toshiba players don't support DVD-Audio, SACD, or 1080p.
In my opinion, 1080p will be the standard for HDTV. The XBox 360, Playstation 3, and almost all top of the line HDTVs now have 1080P. In one year, it will be commonplace. Think about it. The true HD specification is 1080 lines and not 720 or 766.
The first Sony Blu-Ray player doesn't support DVD-Audio or SACD.
Actually....why would anyone count on any of the new hi res players to be good for redbook.
The Sony and Pioneer Elite players do not even playback cd...only dvd...with the Sony up scaling sd dvd to 1080p supposedly.That leaves the Samsung Blu Ray player and Toshiba hd dvd player as the only players even capable of even playing cd's.
And who is going to trust Toshiba or Samsung to even deliver a great hi res player, let alone a cd player.
Not me.
The only player announced with cd/sa-cd/1080p, as well as the ability to playback future 7.1 lossless and uncompressed audio...is the PS3.Ironic as it is, not one of the other players from either format will have hdmi 1.3 or 7.1 built in decoders and analog outs.
Players from both formats will all be lacking features that have been touted for many months, and second generation players will all be better than these.With regards to the Sony player....I smell some multi channel 192/24 audio only discs on the horizon....and not sa-cd/dvd-a.
What problems are you having?
My HDTV plays non HD channels almost as well has the HD channels.
Except of course for the widescreen.GTF
I have a 32" Sharp LCD bought in 2005.
My son has a 52" Mitsubishi bought in 2004.I admit there's tendency to compare the HD to the standard definition.
But on my Sharp, with SD its easy to see the broadcast TV pixels. There doesn't appear to be a solid line. Also, colors and white/blacks don't seem as white/black as with my CRT. With DVDs, the pixels are less obvious, but my 35" CRT seems to have fuller color and more contrast. It's not bad, but its not as good as a CRT.
With HD, the colors and contrast seems similar to my CRT.
The Mitsubishi is worse, but that could be because its large and rear projection. SD TV and DVDs just do not have solid colors or crisp lines. Everything is a little fuzzy. It's not even close to SD CRT performance.
With HD, however, colors and the sharpness are vastly improved.
By the way, I love my Sharp and would buy another. We're not sure that we would buy another Mitsubishi mainly becasue its not very user friendly.
> > > I admit there's tendency to compare the HD to the standard definition. < < <
That's an excersize in absudity.> > > The Mitsubishi is worse, but that could be because its large and rear projection. SD TV and DVDs just do not have solid colors or crisp lines. Everything is a little fuzzy. It's not even close to SD CRT performance. < < <
That's got to be your TV. I sit 9-10' from my 60" Sony, and I don't have those problems. Sure, some SD broadcasts look like crap, but not all of them. DVDs on my set look absolutely superb, especially through an upscaling player.
I think you really need to take a look at your set-up, something isn't right.
Jack
Heck, 1080i/720p broadcast is pretty spotty. Too often, little better than SD broadcasts and only occasionally as good as HDNET/Discovery channel. High bitrate broadcasts cost bucks and penny-pinching networks seldom take full advantage of the available bandwidth.
....not 720 or 768 lines, in my opinion.Recently every new display that I've seen that has 1080 or more lines also supports 1080p.
As prices continue to drop, 1080 line displays that support 1080p will become common.
In two years, I predict that almost all $2500 and up HDTVs will have 1080 lines and can pass 1080p through their inputs.
I also predict that almost all HD players will support 1080p in two years.
It won't matter if broadcast is sticking with 720p/1080, but I think they'll change as well.
The 1080p standard may last 10 or more years..
The reason that most 1080 line displays don't support 1080p at the input is because those manufacturers cheaped-out on the HDMI receiver chip. The HDMI spec supported 1080p60 from the start (v1.0). Manufacturers, however, chose to "count beans" and opted for the cheaper version of the chip (720p/1080i max, which, in my opinion, Silicon Image should have never made available) with their 1080 line displays. When DVI chips went to 165MHz, the excuse for not accepting a 1080p60 input with a 1080 line display ceased to exist. And that was many, many years ago.If 1080p60 input capability really wasn't that important, you wouldn't see so many new models with this feature. The fact that most 1080 line display manufacturers will actually offer 1080 line displays which will accept a 1080p input in 2006 (just one year later, after their 2005 models didn't) screams "damage control". And to think that they all knew Blu-ray was right around the corner. That's pretty shitty, if you ask me. Well, at least they can pimp their new and improved displays...
A few companies are upgrading to newer chipsets that will handle VC-1 and MPEG-4 AP. This will allow 1080p delivery, but use less bandwidth than MPEG-2 does at 1080i.And for the last (hopefully, but I'm sure it won't be) friggin' time, broadcast does not drive video technology.
This statement is so wrong. The move to digital TV is nearly 100% driven by broadcast issues.
Broadcast doesn't drive video technology anywhere what it used to. In the past, yes, but not anymore. Other areas push video technology now. And it's not about the move to digital TV. It's about higher resolution viewing. Broadcast digital TV is about fitting 978 channels in the space of 6. It's about money. It's about advertising dollars. For the broadcast industry, digital TV is not about a better picture (though it can be a side benefit in some cases, it's not the motive).Much of the push to higher resolution is from DVD, the computer industry's higher resolution screens/games and video technology (VC-1, MPEG-4 AP and others), the fact that technology exists to make larger screens (not front projectors) that reveal the crap we couldn't see on 19" televisions and the fact the cost to make them has been steadily decreasing over the last 5 years (more affordable to more people).
The broadcast industry has to make higher resolution material avaiable to keep their audience. But the fact that we will have 1080p available in our homes way before anyone broadcasts in this format should tell you something -- like the broadcast industry doesn't drive video technology anymore. Apparently not.
The push for digital TV is driven by broadcast, because the analog spectrum for TV broadcasts is going away. That is why the ATSC standard was promulgated.There are copious amounts of information available on this, if you would but read it.
When did I say anything about digital TV? You are the one who keeps bringing that up. You are saying that digital tv is driven by the broadcast industry. I am saying that the broadcast industry no longer drives video technology like it once did. That's two different things.People are fond of bringing up the fact that there is no 1080p broadcast content in order to justify why it's not necessary to get a 1080p capable display. That's just totally asinine. The simple fact is that advances in display and video technology are stepping ahead of what the broadcast industry can or is willing to offer. Because of that, the broadcast industry now has less to do with advances in video technology (unlike in the past, it's not the driver anymore).
The analog spectrum is not "going away", it's being taken back. Over a decade of kicking and screaming by the broadast industry can't be twisted into "we can't wait to go digital".
Read? That's good advice. And if you would but follow your own advice, you would realize that you are the one who is wrong.
Today Microsoft told the gaming community that a 1080p gaming console is "impossible."So, it's certainly not going to be gaming that drives "advances in video technology." Since HD-DVD and Blu-ray are destined to be mass-market flops, what's left?
Aren't they the ones who said HDMI was responsible for the lack of 1080p inputs? Aren't they the ones who said HDMI was not currently capable of 1080p? As they most often are, wrong on both counts.How much of their BS do you actually believe? Did you believe it when they said they would not offer an external HD drive? Could that lie have been more transparent?
On another point, when I said "gaming" drives video technology, I didn't say "game consoles". You assumed that's what I meant. Did you never play games on a computer?
The PS3 will, however, offer 1080p gaming. How many games will be available and how many people will be able to take advantage of those games doesn't matter. It will once again prove Microsoft wrong, though.
And if you believe the next gen format is going to be a flop, your head is so far up your ass that Rand McNally couldn't map it back out of your hole. The movie studios will not let it flop. Period.
Joe, I have never been anything but polite to you, yet you have repeatedly called me names and made disparaging remarks. It is pointless to continue this discussion because you always revert to personal attacks and invective.
It is pointless to continue this discussion.
You may well be right. But since I have a rather expensive 720p display, I'm not in a big rush to immediately upgrade to 1080p technology. Blu-Ray or HD-DVD's attraction is the possibility of high resolution movies, provided that the player will output 720p via DVI to 720p-native displays. OTOH, 40$ pricetags for a handful of Blu-ray disks will make early adoption problematical.
Where did you see this ($40)? That can't be US dollars, right? The actual street price will be determined soon enough (probably $21.99 - $24.99), but the MSRP will be under $30. Could you be confusing this price ($40) with the MSRP of the hybrid HD-DVD/DVD discs (they'll MSRP around $39.99)?
The deciding factor that made VHS tapes win the format war was the porn industry. I'm not going to jump on the hi-res disc bandwagon there is enough software that I REALLY want, reasonably priced. I'm going to wait untill things ort themselves out.
Jack
I agree that the new format players probably won't do DVds amazongly well, and *if* I were to go that route, and that's a BIG if, I would still use my current DVD player.That said, IMO 1080p won't be the standard for a long time down the road. It may never be broadcast, due to its bandwidth. Right now, the only TV I know that has 1080p input via HDMI is the new HP. None of the other sets with 1080p native resolution have 1080p inputs. Some of the '06 models will. I'm not convinced its needed right now.
Jack
I don't agree.I still have a 1978 19" TV in one bedroom and a 1990 36" TV in my main teater system. I have power amps dating back to 1976 in my $10K home theater system.
I own one 32" LCD HDTV. It's in the master bedroom. I plan to keep it decades.
When I buy a 50" for my main system to replace my 36" I want it to last for a long time. I think I'll be disappointed one or two years down the road if I buy a 720p/1080i HDTV.
What's worse is buying an HDTV that has only 720 or 766 lines. Even 1080i must be downconverted to 766 lines to fit the screen.
I think 1080 line HDTVs will be common in a year or two.
If you're going to get a large HDTV, it should display the entire 1080 lines -- regardless of what is broadcast.
I have a new (last November) 60" Sony SXRD (LCOS technology). It has a native resolution of 1080p. It does NOT accept 1080p with any of its inputs, only 1080i (or lower). With the exception of the new HP DLP sets, NONE of the current TVs accept 1080p signal. The 06 models might, at least some of them might. Persoanlly, I don't think its important.
Jack
The specs for Blu-ray do not support 1080p@60fps, they only supoprt 1080p@24fps. How much better is that than 1080i@60fps?
Jack
If the source is filtered, 1080p24 is better (where no filtering is done). However, even with no filtering 1080i60 takes up more space than 1080p24.Most people get the 1080p60 confused with what's actually on-disc. BluRay will encode 1080p24 on-disc for film (video should be 1080i60), but the output can be 1080p60 since most displays refresh at 60fps. HD-DVD doesn't encode 1080p24 on-disc, so 1080i60 is the max regardless of film or video content. For displays that can refresh at a faster rate, BluRay players offer 1080p24 output which can be displayed at 72fps. You'd think that the player could output at 72fps, but supposedly HDMI can't handle a 72fps rate.
.
Blue Ray players also sport a red laser to play back CD's and DVD's.Richard.
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