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Is this format dead? I never had a chance to listen to it, but all of the reviews were generally pretty positive. I don't see any all-encompassing processors based on CS, but only as a DSP mode in the Theta products. It would seem that CS would be much closer to an analog's dream than the digital alternatives. Thoughts?
I can't find any info on the net.
I have it (the Circle Surround 5.2.5 decoder) and consider it an irreplaceable part of my system.No digital conversion, strictly analog in analog out. Vinyl surround,tremendous,cd surround tremendous. It is fed by
the secondary outputs of a Reference Line passive pre-amp,
I now only use the center,surround and sub outputs from it, the Reference Line main outputs feed the main power amps.I did use it as my total pre-amp prior to acquiring the passive pre, and it sounded very good as a preamp,sweet and detailed. In music mode, (no delays) it
extracts stereo full bandwith surround info from regular stereo sources. Circle Surround encoded discs (I have 8 of them) are indescribable. Regular movie(stereo or dolby surround) sound indistinguishable from most DD or DTS movies. Side wall fill in is superior to the best DTS or
DD encoded movies, IMO and from my listening the only advantage DTS and DD have over it (sometimes) is the LFE
channel which can give louder bass (if encoded) than CS
sub output,and the occasional _extra_ foley effects that
are sometimes added to discrete soundtracks and not found
in the regular dolby mix. With CS you get the directional,full stereo rears advantage of DD AND DTS without the data reduction, the ambience of Dolby surround
tracks is always there, the best of both worlds. They (CS)
don't advertise any more, but the 5.2.5 decoder was still
available as late as October when I last checked ( i purchased mine last July. The new SMART Devices higher priced Circle Surround EX ($299) is actually a full fledged CS unit, and a steal at that price. Sorry, this is
probably more than you wanted to know, but I love CS, and
I'm a music first, ht second person.
More than I wanted to know?? What, are you nuts??!!
That info was GREAT! I do have more questions though. Are you using direct firing monopoles for the rears, or dipoles? Personally, I like the diffuse ambience of dipoles, but I seem to remember that CS suggested direct firing monopoles equidistant from the listener.
Also, do you feel that the lack of delays is much of a problem? Would you suggest purchasing an external delay box in order to tune one's preferences, or would it muck up the sound?
I wonder why Smart Devices isn't pushing the consumer versions harder. It seems like they have a neat product. I'd be using a sub, and wonder if the provisions are adequate on the $299 decoder. Thanks for all of your help.
The unit I have is the original Circle Surround 5.2.5
decoder by Rocktron (it may still be available,I don't know for sure but could find out, list $999 and worth every penny). This unit has music mode (no delays, just the hall ambience from out of phase information in the recording,it works great, wouldn't want additional delays
for music btw). It also has video surround mode which gives a fixed 30ms delay to the surrounds. This really works great with movies,though I suppose an adjustable
delay would have been more room friendly (30ms might be too much for some rooms). It also has a wide steering button for the rears where hard pans go to the rears,again
great on movies, I turn it off on music. I'm using monopoles (Vandy VSM's) in the rear. I personally like
dipoles/bipoles for dolby surround sources, not for Dolby
Digital,DTS or music surround. To me discrete(DD,DTS, which CS sounds like) pans don't sound right through dipoles/bipoles,with monopoles
a pan(say the dragon in Dragonheart DTS) is clearly delineated, not so to my ears with di/bi-poles. There is such an increased sense of ambience with the stereo surrounds from CS, that to me there is no need for di/bi-poles which are more needed with the mono rears of
Dolby Surround/THX. I guess an external delay to the rear
outs of the CS unit would work, if used with the unit in
music mode, otherwise you'd be doubling delays if in video
mode. I personally feel delays are good only for movies,not music. Smart Devices bought rights to Circle Surround technology sometime early last year (I think) and
just started marketing the Circle Surround EX heavily
recently,what with Dolby EX etc., coming out. Its reviewed
in the current Widescreen Review. This is a smaller unit
that is supposed to be an EX add-on to other surround decoders. They have a small $249 unit and a $299 one. The
$299 one has full channel capability. But it does not
have the modes,delay,bandwith,soundfield and treble reduction (for bright soundtracks) that the original CS 5.2.5 has. The only provision on that unit for a sub is
for the rear channels. I'd say checkout the current issue of Widescreen Review. As an aside, the dealer I purchased
the unit from was considering carrying the Theta line just
because they were adding CS to their options. He ordered a
couple of units to test/audition. He told me it sounded inferior to the CS 5.2.5 units. Probably due to the fact that in the Theta everything was converted to digital before passing through the CS decoder chipset. There was no analog bypass. Interesting. Hope this book :) helps.
The Theta Circle Surround with a music CD:
- digital out of a CD player feeding digital in of the Theta
- digital domain Circle Surround processing in the Theta
- Theta 96/24 DACs processing for D/A analog output to the ampsAn A/D conversion would only be necessary with Vinyl.
This method should provide even higher quality sound then doing it in the analog domain (Theta has higher S/N ratio and higher noise floor). Maybe the dealer didn't have the Theta set-up correctly.
bstan
I don't know, might be. Then again he is a vinyl afficianado,and might have been disappointed with its vinyl performance. Music is first to him,not HT.
I bow down to you, oh Knowledgeable One. Your experience is vast and greatly appreciated.
As tempting as it is to search out(been discontinued for a while now) an old unit, I really would have a hard time paying $1k for a unit that is no longer manufacturer supported. What a shame that Smart Devices doesn't see fit to re-introduce a new comprehensive CS processor.
As you may have surmised, I am one of those types that can't stand discrete sounds coming out of the rear(side?) channels. It is oh SO distracting to me. And I know that that is how alot of the material in the DD and DTS movies are mixed...bullets, glass breaking, footsteps, etc...takes me right out of the movie.
As for music, I'm not sure, but having the piano in front of me, the sax to the side or rear, and the vocalist all around sounds weird. Now if EVERYONE would mix things such that ambience is the only thing coming from the surrounds, then I would have my way and the world would be just right. Again, thanks for the help.
I definitely agree with you on effects. I have had to go
to great pains to get my VSM rears to disappear ,but disappear they have,it can be done with direct radiators.
Just more placement critical. The walls of my listening
room totally disappear. As for music with Circle Surround the front channels are untouched, only rear ambience is extracted. One of the turn offs to me of alot of DTS music discs is the very effect you speak of, I don't want any
instruments or vocalists anywhere but on the front soundstage,thats why I purchased the Eagles:Hell freezes over on laser (uncompressed,PCM) and play it through CS. The DTS dvd has instruments comng from the rears on some songs,damn I hate that.
Could not agree with you more. I guess that the mixers are afraid that consumers will feel as if they aren't getting their money's worth without the gimmecky effects. 2 questions: 1) is the stereo soundtrack on a DVD always compressed? 2) How did you position your surrounds in order to provide more diffusive sound? Must've been tough..
You hit it on the nose, gimmicks to make people go oooh-ahhh. I've found many systems have the rear levels up
way too high. The sounds blaring out at you from each corner. My surrounds are equidistant from the center of the listening couch,6ft from the sides of the couch and 11 inches behind the back of the
couch. The drivers are Vandy coaxials approx another 11inches above centered listeners ear,used to have them higher,but sounfield was more coherent at this height. They disappear here
and give tremendous air,ambience and side detail(watching a sporting event or concert is like being there). Had to play with delays (DD &DTS) an keep the levels down until the desired effect was reached. I have some jazz concert
dvds that are uncompressed pcm,sound great. As far as I know only some of the music concerts are uncompressed. On
the dvd movies even the Dolby surround track is derived from the data-reduced Dolby Digital mix,thus it is inferior to the Dolby surround from say a laserdisc. What kind of surrounds do you have? A friend of mine has the Infinity Quadropoles, they disappear very nicely and sound
great as long as not overdriven.
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