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In Reply to: Re: $1200 posted by Jack G on January 8, 2007 at 08:35:51:
Eventually, most studios would end up using the format that has the lowest production costs anyway and the "war" would end.Blu-ray is superior to HD DVD in several categories that will become more apparent as production ramps up and encoding characteristics are learned, but if costs are used for the studios' decision making, HD DVD would be the winner -- and the consumer would lose.
Follow Ups:
With all of BD's suposed superiority, the absolute *best* they can do, is look as good as HD DVD. That "superiority" doesn't have any practical value.
FWIW, odds are I'll end up getting a BD player this year, just to get more titles, but they do need to lower their prices if they want the masses to buy.
Jack
The 20GB version of the PS3 is $499 MSRP. Is there currently a less expensive HD DVD player? No. Plus, the PS3s have gaming and internet capability (besides some other items).Actually, Blu-ray can look "better" than HD DVD if the movie scene calls for it because Blu-ray has superior bandwidth (40Mb/s reserved just for the video alone vs 30Mb/s for the entire user accessible data stream) and storage space (50GB vs 30GB). Why do you think there are so few HD DVDs with a lossless soundtrack and the ones that do have it are 16/48, instead of 20/48 or 24/48? It's because all of the items in the data stream add up, whether you are using/accessing them or not. If the demand for interactive features increases in the future, HD DVD cannot compete with Blu-ray without sacrificing the quality or quantity of video, audio or content.
It's a fact that, when using the same masters, Blu-ray and HD DVD picture quality are equal. And that's not only for the same codec (VC-1 from Warner Bros), but for different codecs as well (VC-1 on HD DVD and MPEG2 on Blu-ray from Paramount). Therefore, the only reason to choose one over the other is content and we know who wins in that category.
By the way, have you compared the CES release lists for Blu-ray vs HD DVD for Q1/Q2 2007, especially the number of "exclusive to Blu-ray" titles? And where was Universal?
The storage space argument is a red herring (see your comments below). HD DVD has anounced a 51G disc, but to be honest I don't think that's relevant.Your comments here:
"It's a fact that, when using the same masters, Blu-ray and HD DVD picture quality are equal. And that's not only for the same codec (VC-1 from Warner Bros), but for different codecs as well (VC-1 on HD DVD and MPEG2 on Blu-ray from Paramount). "^^^^shows that the "tenchnical superiority" of BD is little more than PR Hype.
"Therefore, the only reason to choose one over the other is content and we know who wins in that category"
That's why I will probably get a BD player in the next year or so, if they meet several requirements:
1)They actually put out the titles announced
2) They make a STAND ALONE player with a decent price/preformace.Right now, there isn't anything on Blu-ray I really want,but that may change.
While HD DVD will put out 300 titles this year, I expected more. Yes, I'm disappointed in Universal. I also notced the lack of news along the technical aspects of BD. No BD-J demos, no news on BD-Live, only one new player-Samsung is replcing its old model. No price reductions.
Its quite possible, that HD DVD will lose out due to lack of titles, while BD loses due to high price of stand alone players. Note: HD DVDs are still outselling Blu-ray. In the end, both will just be niche products.
Jack
^^^^shows that the "tenchnical superiority" of BD is little more than PR Hype.Lossless audio: HD DVD -- show me the money!!!
(Wait. Listen for the pindrop.)
It just doesn't deliver. Granted, video quality has been consistent and, for the most part, very good, but video is only 1/2 of the movie experience. HD DVD can't compete with Blu-ray in the audio department.
And before you use the "red herring" argument, I have always made it clear that lossless audio was needed for any next generation format. My main gripe with the format in its early development was the fact that they believed DVD's Dolby Digital was good enough audio to go along with a High Definition format. WTF? Dolby Digital doesn't provide enough audio quality for DVD, much less an HD format! They eventually came around, but -- giving credit where credit's due -- the HD DVD side's use of a lossless codec is what pushed them in that direction. Ironically, it's something the HD DVD format has a problem dealing with. The person that really pushed for its inclusion for HD DVD, Amir from Microsoft, didn't understand how the data stream works with regard to bandwith and the parallel streams required for accessibility. Thankfully, Blu-ray doesn't have this problem (at least not to the extent that HD DVD does).
And, while Blu-ray has the ability to demonstrate its superiority with additional and interactive content due to a less restrictive bandwidth, I actually couldn't care less for it. I'm strictly a "best audio and best video" kind of guy. Well, throw in the movie trailer and I'm happy. All of that extra stuff is wasted on people like me. It was the same with DVD's extras.
1)They actually put out the titles announced
2) They make a STAND ALONE player with a decent price/preformace.Once actual dates are put to titles (and the lists I've seen have actual dates, not just quarter or month), they're almost 100% certain to be released. That doesn't mean the occassional pushed back or delayed title, but they'll be released.
What's wrong with the PS3? Is the fact that it has gaming capability such a "hinderance/stigma"? I think the present capability of this product really surprised the HD DVD side ("What? A game console for movies? The PS2 was a crappy DVD player and the PS3 will be a crappy Blu-ray player as well." Ooops! That's not quite how it turned out, now did it.) and I'm sure some of the Blu-ray side as well. It's going to rock even more in the very near future (March) and don't think that there aren't some more surprises in the PS3 world down the line.
Right now, there isn't anything on Blu-ray I really want,but that may change.
There are 5 Blu-ray exclusive studios and all-but-one of the rest support both formats: there has to be something out there that you like. Universal is the only holdout re: Blu-ray and I'm sure you've read the rumors as to why they were a no-show at CES (2008 or sooner they'll release on Blu-ray -- unconfirmed, of course.).
...while BD loses due to high price of stand alone players.
You might want to check out the prices of Toshiba players compared to Blu-ray players in Europe: you'll notice that they're pretty much equal. Now, what does that tell you about the prices of Toshiba players in the US? Can you say "subsidized"? The Blu-ray players, except for the PS3s, are not subsidized anywhere and Toshiba doesn't subsidize in Europe. Therefore, the Toshiba prices in the US are artificially low. Definitely good for the consumer, but a fact that's almost always left out of the HD DVD/Blu-ray player pricing argument.
I pretty much agree with most of your points. Personally, I'm not that concerned about lossless audio, if I want good sound, I'll listen to my music system-but that's just me.:-)
I suspect Joe Sixpack doesn't really give two craps about high quality sound, as long as it goes boom.For the record, only the first generation of players was subsidized by Toshiba. The rest are not. MSRPs: A2-$500 A20-$600 XA2-$1000. This doesn't count the Xbox add-on for $200. There will also be some Chinese companies putting out players in the $400 range. Onkyo has announced it will produce an HD DVD player (no idea on price).
Microsoft and Broadcom are working on more ways to make them cheaper.> > > What's wrong with the PS3? < < <
It looks like a George Forman Grill. :-)> > > Is the fact that it has gaming capability such a "hinderance/stigma"? < < <
That is some of it. Some people see it as an A/V control center, but others see it as a toy-something you buy your children. You really do underestimate this. Even if Joe Sixpack likes it, Mrs. Sixpack won't. It is still, mostly a game console.
BTW, BR players aren't doing so well in Europe. PS3 isn't there yet, supposedly in March, but *rumored* to be pushed back untill September. Not everyone's happy about BRs region coding either. HD doesn't have that problem.
Like I said, I may eventually get a BR player, or, since the A1 is such a good upscaler, I may just buy the DVDs instead. We'll see.
Jack
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