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I've owned a Toshiba 2109 for about 7 weeks now. The 2109 was my first step into digital theater (not having owned a laserdisc player of CD player with a digital feed) and I have been delighted by its performance for HT. Something about spending an affordable $300 on a player that has performed without a glitch with the exception of one lock up. Its never done it again. I can say that I abosutely love DD, and have luke warm feelings about DTS (Apollow 13). I haven't noticed a significant improvement in sound with DTS in my HT.I've learned that the Toshiba 2109 is not a good transport for music in my system. I have a combination of mid- and hi-fi gear for my two channel that includes ProAc Response 2 speakers, Sony TA9000ES preamp, HSU 12va sub, B&K amps, and audioquest/MIT T2 interconnects and speaker cables. When I first listened to the digital out on my Toshiba, I was very disapplinted with the sound. I was like "this is good digital sound?". So many have raved about the excellent digital performance of all the new cheap DVD players. To me, sound was bright and skeletal when I used the 2109 as a transport. Music had abosolutely no involement for me. I much preferred the sound of my wifes old Onkyo $300 5 disk changer with analogue outputs only. I must say I was surprised to prefer the sound of the cheap Onkyo DACS fed into the analogue inputs of the TA9000ES, which then reprocessed the signal with its internal DACs.
I very recently purchased a 1-month used JVC1050 formerly sold as part of the recent units sold at soundcity.com. I figured $300 bucks wasn't too bad to try something new, especially for an old transport that many say equals or exceeds transports of today. By the end of the first two tracks on Patricia Barbers "Modern Cool" CD, I had noticed several things that the JVC did better. Brass and guitar were much smoother without loss of detail. The music had flesh to it. My music enjoyment doubled and I was very comfortable with the sound. All of this with just the switch of a transport!
So there you have it. I'm convinced now that transports DO make a difference in 2-channel audio. I told myself that if I couldn't hear a difference with the JVC versus my Tosh. 2109, then I would sell the JVC and buy a mega changer. Well, my wife doesn't get a mega changer and the JVC1050 is staying! By the way, if you find this piece on the used market, do consider buying because it is truly a nice unit. I won't ever be listening to music through the Toshiba again.
RT
I just have to question your testing procedures as I would suspect that is where you perceptions is coming from, a bias. But then, I like DBT for such comparisons to have a meaning for me.
I don't dismiss the idea of blind testing and I may go out and buy duplicate copies of one or two of my favorite CDs so I can perform a blind test.However, my recent purchase of a Toshiba DVD player was intented to be my last digital purchase until the new music formats are established. My purchase decision was based on glowing reviews of how well modestly priced DVD players served as transports. I didn't want a separate CD player and DVD transport and I would say I was heavily biased toward wanting the DVD player to sound great. After purchasing the Toshiba 2109 I became immediately awhare of a characteristic sound of this transport (I'm using a canare digital interconnect). As I said before, music seemed to become more constricted and skeletal, soundstaging seemed a bit flatter, and music was bright to my ears. By the way, I had never considered anything I had previously played on my system to sound "bright", but the Toshiba sounded just that. I listened for quite awhile with the DVD player, but in the end I gave up and ended up listening to the Onkyo carosel instead. The toshiba was my first experience with a fully digital transport and playback and I was disappointed. I wasn't enjoying my music and thats whats important to us all in audiophiledom.
When comparing the DVD player to CD player, even my wife immediately noticed a difference and believe me, she is not a big supporter of my spending habits in audio. Music was more pleasurable for her to listen to on the JVC1050 transport. Initially, she did comment that she thought that the 2109 had more "detail", but I felt that the JVC had as much detail without the harshness. I felt that the detail she was hearing was acutally treble emphasis or digital harshness (from poor error correction?). My crude example is that some feel that bose speakers are very detailed, but I chalk that up to treble emphasis in the speaker design and not improved resolution of detail.
Anyway, I am fully supportive that transports do make a difference above budget DVD players. Can't say what would happen if I had a Denon DVD-5000 or Sony 7700. Either way, I'm happy about my purchases. I'm thrilled with the 2109 on movies and the 1050 on music. In my eyes, that money well spent. By the way, I will try to perform an AB test with players and digital interconnects to see if I hear a difference. I will try to post later.
Todd
Here is a simple initial test before you go get duplicates. A test disc is needed though, with either pink noise or a few frequency bands like 1khz, 100hz and perhaps a 10khz tone, if no pink noise is available. You also need an spl meter,RS has an analog meter, although this is not accurate enough to check the level of the two player to match, it will give you an indication of gross level differences. A tripod would also help to hold the meter stady and ina constant place. Play the test disk with bot players and check the level at the listening place. In a real test, one would use a volt meter to check at the speakers to 1% of voltage with both player. That gives the desired .1db level match but that is beyond the call of duty for your curiosity.
The other problem you will have with multiple discs is how will you synchronize the two so you cannot get a clue which disc is which by one being a bit ahead/behind the other, if you switch rapidly.
With this initial test of level, if they match, do a ten trial yesy on your wife, randomly played in the two players, without her knowledge which is which, and let her write down which player she thinks is playing. Correct the answer sheet after the ten trials, not after each trial. You need 9 correct answers.
Actually, statistically speaking, isn't anything more than 7/10 statistically significant? At 7/10 your confidence interval is > 90%, right?Or has it just been too long since I took statistics?
In the wast majority of stat testing, most use the 95% confidence level, not the 90%. So, the 9 of 10 is correct for the 95% level. Check out this link for a better explanation of the binomial stuff with some tables:
http://mars.acs.oakland.edu/~djcarlst/abx_p9.htm
I hope this will get you to the link. It does on myt hyperlink.
There was a review a couple of months ago in HiFi News & Record Reviews (a British mag) that showed with listening tests and measurements that the current crop of DVD players provide marginal playback for music. I don't know where the notion came from that DVD has superior musical playback.
I wonder how well their test was controlled, and what kind of statistical significant data they came up with? I suspect their test as being poor. They are not known for good DBTs.
The data came from measurements of the players themselves. Comments on musical quality came from the measurements & listening tests. I believe the listening session were blind, but since I read the article several months ago & generally do not attempt to memorize such things, I can't be sure. Please read the review for yourself.
Is there a web page for that review? I don't have access to back issues, only current ones in the bookstore.
I think, if I remember correctly, they don't do a same/difference test but a preference and may just rate it in a group. That is not meaningful.
No webpage to my knowledge.
Probably by those who feel that CD players are old technology whereas DVD players are new technology. The new technology has to sound better. Also, keep in mind that some magazines, like The Sensible Sound, have not helped matters by stating that they found no sound difference between cheap CD players and expensive ones. Add to that, that some people are using the number of bits (24-bit DACs in DVD players vs 20-bit DACs in CD players) as a way to justify why DVD players should sound better than dedicated CD players.
> > > Also, keep in mind that some magazines, like The Sensible Sound, have
not helped matters by stating that they found no sound difference
between cheap CD players and expensive ones. < < <What have they done? Compared them in a DBT as it should be and the only way to eliminate your biases. Is that frightening to some? No, they did everything right and the Brit magazine messed up their tests. It could be a preference test as that is what they are well known for.
The Sensible Sound proclaims that there are no audible differences between inexpensive and expensive CD players. And in that same issue go on to actually review CD players, in different price ranges, stating their preference based partly on what they sound like. Gee, they sure earned their credibility in that issue.And how the hell would you know if these tests were run properly? You only seem to think the test was done properly if the outcome agrees with your beliefs. Now who is being biased here? Let's see, you buy bought your CD player because ABX testing told you that you can't hear any difference between different players. Did you even bother to verify that? No! Again, insecurity keeps you from challenging your own beliefs. You seem to think that your bias is correct and anybody who disagrees with that is wrong.
Good luck and keep reading those ABX test results.
I was suckered into a perscription with the back-issue offer and actually took the time to read most of the print back into their past. I got a new issue in the mail the other day and put it directly into the recycle bin without even opening it. I wouldn't even use that rag to mulch under my spruce trees. They might all start growing the same.Hey, here's a thought. Let's assume that all audio gear sounds alike. I'd still rather read good writing about it. Inaccurate untruths written with wit, style and humor are much more palitable. Give me good writers, I'll decide for myself where my truth is.
And how will you sort out the truth? You already threw out one sopurce and rejected it. Besides, you didn't read that ALL components sound the same, that is just your imagination doing tricks on you.
What page exately is that preferenced based article on CD players in the same issue? I don't seem to find it. Perhaps you are mistaken or didn't comprehend.
I am sure you are right, they don't know how to conduct a DBT. Do you? Have you found a difference? Perhaps your test is flawed beyond recognition.
Oh yes, I don't verify every test as they do seem credible; I only question the questionable ones. Do you veryfy every DBT or sighted test with your DBT?
On the otherhand, since you have such a hard time accepting this or any other DBT, where are your test results? Protocols?
What CDPs did they compare the DVD players to?I think a lot of the DVD as a transport hype might be reasonable as compared to low cost CDPs. It seems I recall the Doug Blackburn thinks his 3109 tweaked out is fairly decent as a transport, but then that's not a stock player.
Rod M, I read the review a while back, so I am not 100% certain about which cd players they referred other than to say they were in the $300 USD range. The reviewers go on to say that none of the DVD manufactors were claiming superior sound to cd only players. I am only reporting what I read. If others want to comment on this, I would suggest you read the article first.
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