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Good day!First post on this board so I apologize if I'm beating a dead horse here. I've got your typical HT setup.....Denon 1701 receiver, DVD, S-VHS...all pumping audio to Klipsch speakers (K-Horns, Belle center), etc. Sound is fantastic. Video just does not equal the audio. I have a Proscan 50" rear projection. Really dialed in and such and has very good picture quality, but just isn't 'glorious' if you know what I mean. Looking at a DVD in the 235:1 ratio is rather puny.
I have had the opportunity to check out from work an InFocus LCD (LP755) projector and have been using an InFocus DLP (LP350)projector. WOW! Holy mackeral! Now I get that true 'theater' experience. Ooooh's and aaaah's from friends who come over are equally distributed over the video as well as the audio. Proscan has been demoted to 'Nintendo' duty in the back room.
So my question(s) are: At $2500 - $3000 for a LCD or DLP projector that is all digital and HD compatible, both these models have built in line doublers and are better than the best resolution you can pipe to them, why doesn't everybody on earth go the projector route? Space savings is tremendous. Nothing jutting out into the room. Visual impact is stunning. Price is less than a decent rear projector. Why don't I see these items in every TV and Electronic's store?
Is there a compelling reason why LCD/DLP takes a back seat to rear projection/direct view? Is it a marketing issue? TV manufacturer's putting the brakes on the whole deal for political reasons? Can sombody help me understand why anyone would want a 19", 27", 50" or even 65" when you could have a 10 foot diagonal as your HT centerpiece?
Confused in CA.
Follow Ups:
I recently took the plunge into HT and "adjusted" my audio system to a HT system. One of the reasons I didn't do it before was because I wasn't about to stick a television between my speakers. I tried this once and a big box with a piece of glass on it doesn't make for good listening (ended up in a secondary video system). So anyway, I just bought the Marantz DLP projector and in terms of the overall video experience, it totally blew me away. I compared it against various other DLP/LCD models and between the picture quality and features, decided that the extra money was worth it. Before I bought this projector, I had this tremendous soundstage with a tiny picture that just made the entire experience feel wrong. Now, it is simply sensational. Granted, I am exceedingly picky about my audio and the ability of my video projector to be totally black doesn't really phase me but I have been watching movies just about every night since I got the thing and have found great satisfaction in moving to the projector.
I've seen numerous LCD displays in dealer demo rooms and if you can ignore the image artifacts, the lack of color saturation and most importantly - the complete inability to render black as any thing more than a faded middling gray - they might just be your ticket. From what I've seen all they give you is big. Low image quality + big isnt a winning combination for a device that requires a screen and an installation with a projector somewhere out in the room itself. Some of which have outrageously noisy fans BTW. I saw a Runco digital system this past Saturday and the fan noise had to be on the order of 40 or 50 dB - and the projector was just about 4 feet above my head. Talk about distracting! Add to that the fact that the image was pale, undersaturated and basically lousy in every way and I was unimpressed to say the least.I will say there are at least two digital displays I've seen that show potential. The first is the new Panasonic Flat screen LCD 16:9 - it does a credible job with blacks and displays a purity and sense of clarity and sharpness that are quite striking - though you will still see image artifacts. I still perceive a certain lack of color range - its a bit like looking at a computer monitor set to 256 colors instead of 16 or 32 bit. There is even occaisional color banding in shaded areas rather than smooth gradual transitions in tone.
The other device that points to an interesting future is the new Mitsubishi 65" RPTV based on the Texas Instruments DLP technology. I saw this two weeks ago in a pitch dark demo room and I thought at first that it was a CRT based unit - the blacks were that good. The thing that was striking about it was an absolute sense of fine detail, clairty and resolution and lack of CRT "blurriness" that was absoulutely striking. This technology has real potential, but IMO its not quite there yet. On Disney's Dinosaur there was an odd squirminess to complex finely detailed objects as they moved (the close ups of the pebbled skin of the dinoasaurs heads, for example) and the set had the worst edge enhancement I've ever seen. During the courtship sequence in theat film, where the dark vines hang vertically against a light sky, there were white lines as broad as the vines themselves on either side of each vine - particularly towards the middle of the screen. There was also obvious moire in a few of the scenes where there were large solid color fields with richly saturated colors.
But the thing that was striking was the lack of focus and convergence issues that are endemic to multi tube CRT display devices. There was an absoulte clarity and sense of focus that exceeded ANY CRT based system I've ever seen. Problem is its a $15k device and its still got problems but as these devices are pushed to higher contrast ratios and more refined designs there is no doubt in my mind they will ultimately outdistance CRTs as the superior display technology. But I bet it will be a few more generations of development before that happens...
Oh yeah, all DLPs are not created equal. I saw the Panny RPTV DLP (also $15k) and it couldnt do blacks to save its life. I had the chance to adjust brightness, contrast and color to my hearts content in a darkened room and I never got anything better than a really tired and faded looking gray with an overall image that can only be described as washed out.
joe
Yup, I'd definately extend the same offer as Dan G. After taking into consideration your 'viewpoint(s)', I rented 2 more DVD's this past weekend.....15 Minutes and Enemy at the Gates. Both these flicks have numerous dark scenes that I scrutinized closely (to the point of distraction with the movie). I am absolutely convinced that 1. black level (or the reported lack thereof) is truly not an issue. Black was so close to black words can barely describe. 2. Color saturation is every bit as vivid as the best rear projection and on par with any CRT.Anyone who claims 'pale washed out crappy' or 'dishwater video' from a LCD or DLP projector simply has not seen one properly setup recently. They have made amazing progress in this area of video of late. I am blown away every evening.
If your in the Sacramento area and want to see for yourself, drop me a line. You need to see this!!!!
***Color saturation is every bit as vivid as the best rear projection and on par with any CRT.***Anyone who makes a statement like that hasn't seen many, if any, CRTs in a dark room. If you knew anything about the workings of LCDs you'd know that your statement is quite impossible.
***Anyone who claims 'pale washed out crappy' or 'dishwater video' from a LCD or DLP projector simply has not seen one properly setup recently.***
Proper setup? An idiot can set up an LCD projector. That's one of the primary reasons why folks buy them.
I've seen the recent Sony and some of the InFocus units. None of them meet my personal standards for quality video.
Richard - So sorry, a thousand pardons:**Proper setup? An idiot can set up an LCD projector. That's one of the primary reasons why folks buy them.**
I guess I went off the trail and into Idiotsville when I thought this was a forum for folks to express their opinions for the benefit of others. I did not realize that we were free to post our opinions only if they align with yours or else suffer name calling and derision. However, I don't recall ever implying that you would need a PHD to setup an LCD projector....I'll work on my wording so that other's might not read that into my post(s) in the future. Also, I knew there was a reason I bought the projector, not for the picture, but because it was made for idiots like me to setup. Thanks for identifying that for me, it was bugging me for a long time.
**Anyone who makes a statement like that hasn't seen many, if any, CRTs in a dark room. If you knew anything about the workings of LCDs you'd know that your statement is quite impossible.**
I respectfully suggest that perhaps you are confusing 'color saturation' with brilliance. You see, good color saturation need not come from projectile CRT, eyeball burning, headache inducing color levels. Don't know what you look for in a picture, but I look for accuracy in color reproduction. I can't for the life of me recall looking at a richly colored flower in the garden that gave me a 'CRT headache'. Maybe I should use more Miracle grow.....
**None of them meet my personal standards for quality video.**
Finally, I certainly pass no judgement upon your personal standards for quality video. I'm simply speaking to what my eyes see, and the enjoyment I derive thereof. The fact that I run the test dept at major broadcast equipment manufacturer (see e-mail address then look us up on the web) has absolutely nothing to do with my interest in video. The fact that 90% of everything broadcast over air, cable or satellite goes through our equipment in no way qualifyies me to offer my opinion on the setup I have at home, or to speak to the visual results of the intricies of LCD technology. I can only hope you accept my humble apology for being so presumptious.
ever said or implied that you are an idiot. I'm sorry you feel that you are.
I'll show you a 100" LCD that will make you change your mind.
Vivid amazing picture, crisper than tube, rich colors, and works in lighting.
Sanyo XP21n.....Had a CRT owner over a while back who fell in love with it too- he liked the blacks.
dg
!
may be bright and large, but DLP/LCD projectors can't do blacks well, have more limited resolution (because of limited pixel counts), don't have the same degree of color saturation as CRT projectors, and exhibit obvious pixel structure.In terms of picture quality, my Toshiba 65" smokes any DLP/LCD setup I've seen, and my Sony CRT front projector smokes the Toshiba.
My thoughts exactly. I'm especially tempted to take the plunge now that the InFocus LP425 (SVGA) is available for $1600. Another $250 for 120" screen and I can go BIG for under $2k. The only thing holding me back is that to do HDTV you really need XGA rez (see link below) and the price for XGA DLP projectors is still beyond my reach.http://www.hometheaterpeople.com/course/projector-formats.asp
Check out avsforum.com for lots of chatter on DLP LCD projectors.
The NEC LT150 is a very very nice projector, XGA, and places are blowing it out for $1700 (Dell recently, others too I think)Go get 'em- this projector is amazing for the price, was $3600 and in demand 3 months ago, dunno why the price drop.
Works best with scaler or HTPC though. Fixed throw may be problematic for some.
Dan G.
That sounds like a great deal, but this rainbowing concerns me.TIA -
Tom Dawson
Sorry for the delay (didnt see your ques.)Check out threads at AVS for discussion, basically a small % of the population notices arainbow when quickly glancing black and forth across a DLP image (especially with black and white image content).
It has something to do with eyes picking up the DLP (which is a single apeture strobing sorta spinning color wheel to generate the image).
The image is stillthere it just looks like a faint rainbow is above itSome see it, some don't. If you do, it sucks.
While I will most certainly agree with Rich and Joe about the 'true black' rendering, I feel that that issue is a tradeoff for the overall 'theatre' experience. I cannot agree with the statements 'pale, undersaturated, and basically lousy in every way'! Quite the contrary. Current LCD and DLP models from InFocus (the only ones I've been able to preview) have very good 'almost black'. In fact, the only way I can tell it's not absolute black is when I compare the image to the black grillcloth of my speakers. Then you can see a SLIGHTLY 'lighter' black. Certainly by no means diminishes the viewing experience. In fact, space movies are absolutely, without question the most visually awe-inspiring movies to behold. Even knowing black is 'almost black', that though never ever once crossed my mind whilst viewing. Totally captivated by the on-sceen images. I have also seen 'pale, undersaturated, and basically lousy in every way' units at work during presentations. In my (very limited) experience, I believe that these were low lumen/low contrast units.Color saturation is as good as my ProScan and on par with any direct view in the house. Properly adjusted, I think you'll be extremely impressed.
As far as resolution/artifacts, it is simply as good as the feed you put in. Nothing more, nothing less. Since the projector is engineered to support native XGA resolution, no decompression artifacts are created by the projector. Additionally, since it has no convergence requirements, picture quality is as crisp and detailed as your feed.
My only complaint IS crappy feed. Small (65" or less) viewing areas truly mask poor resolution/digital feed artifacts, etc.
Russtafarian, my father as well as a buddy of mine recently (within the past month) purchased LP350's off of E-Bay for $2500 apiece. These were new in the box with full warranty, not refurbs. The 350 is the XGA 1300 lumen model (with whisper quiet fans!!!). Prices continue to come down on these. I am extremely pleased with mine and it really enhances the whole 'HT experience'. Like I said, upon seeing and experiencing the whole package, friends and family were duly impressed to go out and immediately purchase one of their own. And I don't even have one of those fancy Dalite screens. I was just tossing the picture on the (semi) white wall. My dad went out and bought his based upon watching one DVD projected on my bare wall, and he is as tight as a crab's ass underwater! Currently, I just have a homemade 10ft x 5ft frame made of 2x2's with canvas stretched over it painted 'absolute white'. It looks great! I'm sure a 'real' dalite screen would deepen the blacks, but to me and everybody who's visualized to date, it is waaaay fine as is! Better than fine. Overwhelming! And I am additionally only using the S-Video input.
Sure! A 12K unit would be better. Sure! A 20K CRT unit professionally dialed in by a service technician would be better. My 13" flat screen TV APPEARS to be crisper, more saturated with better resolution than my 27" TV too! A 10K McIntosh amp would be better than my $500 Denon as well. However, for a married guy like myself on a limited budget.....and that limited budget controlled by the Mrs (who, by the way surprisingly authorized the purchase due to how good it looks), buck for buck this contributes as much to the overall visual experience as my Klipschorns do for my audio. I feel like one of them there 'rich dudes' when friends and family are reserving Friday and Saturday nights to come over and watch movies!!
Thanks for all your comments.
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