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The new shootout has been poted over at hometheaterhifi.com. Go check it out at: http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_8_3/dvd-benchmark-progressive-shootout-2-8-2001.htmlFor anyone that doesn't know about this website, and this new part of a series of articles, it is a must read if looking into DVD players. Very informative on the whole mess in general.
Follow Ups:
it is a must read if looking into DVD players***No it isn't. 99.999% of folks who are happy with their DVD players have never read either shootout. The shootout is misleading in that it places emphasis on miniscule defects that most people wouldn't care about even if they could see them.
I don't suppose it occurs to you that the members of the asylum, and especially the video asylum, are comprised of that .001% of the "most people" figure you cite who might not be satisfied with regular stuff--assuming that figure to be accurate. I am pretty sure asylum members are most concerned about high performance audio/video equipment, and definitely more concerned than average folks in that regard.Further, there is nothing misleading about the Shootouts in that they distinguish the various "high end" DVD players available at a given time by plainly comparing performance, period. How else would you compare the players--remote features? Why don't you tell us what you would emphasize in a DVD comparison. BTW, there isn't anything miniscule about MANY of the flaws in DVD technology, and the various players available today purporting to implement it.
Finally, the Shootouts are about as unbiased as anything you will see in print or online these days. Maybe there are some ads on the site for the now out of production EAD Theatermaster, or the $4000 Camelot Roundtable, but if so, I must've missed them. Again, anyone serious about learning about DVD players will find the articles and both Shootouts a must read.
***I don't suppose it occurs to you that the members of the asylum, and especially the video asylum, are comprised of that .001% of the "most people" figure you cite who might not be satisfied with regular stuff--assuming that figure to be accurate. I am pretty sure asylum members are most concerned about high performance audio/video equipment, and definitely more concerned than average folks in that regard.***Not true at all. The vast majority of members know little...that's why they come to the asylum. Virtually all the people I see posting about Secrets have junk for displays and audio. Their money would be far better spent improving those components than wasting it chasing after insignificant improvements that affect 10 discs and that hardly anyone can see.
Just to be clear, you are asserting that Asylum members are just average run of the mill audio/video electronics consumers with average to 'junk' audio/video equipment. Further, Asylum members, by your estimation "know little."Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong. And don't forget, you're wrong. How can you be so wrong? Wrong.
Asylum members are VERY knowledgeable about audio/video components and technology as compared to the general population. WE are not just consumers, we are enthusiasts. The majority of members here have "systems" that cost many, many, times more than the average cost of systems owned by the general population. There is a correlation between cost and performance 99.999% of the time (to borrow a figure).
Look, I know you just want to be a contrarian about this, but you're not making sense--with me, or others in this thread. And what about the rest of my comments? What about your suggestions and/or criteria for a Shootout? You are not just going to sit there and make unilateral decisions about how Asylum members' money ought best be spent and not back it up with something other than opinion, loose proclamations, and random figures. Pull it out, let's see it. Until then, you're wrong.
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I don't respond to idiocy.
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Rich,Better that we just say "It all looks great", eh? That's what TPV and SGHT always say. They also don't want to tick off their advertisers by digging into the details. Fact: SGHT knows these bugs exist but steadfastly refuse to acknowledge them in print. I suspect TPV knows, but can't confirm it.
No one learns ANYTHING that way.
What they're doing isn't good enough, just as CD wasn't good enough 4 years after its introduction.
Regards,
pls keep up with the excellent work.Thanks a lot for the great review.
Jason
> > Better that we just say "It all looks great", eh? That's what TPV and SGHT always say. < <That is true, I can't even figure out why I open SGHT every month, and surely won't be renewing. It's not even a five minute read and the glossy big format - I feel like it's written for a 1st grader. The reviews flat out suck.
On the other hand, I think the Shootouts are a great service, and a great starting point for searching for a DVD player. Someone has to keep the manufacturers honest, it's too bad more don't know about it. I agree it's a must read for anyone that cares about quality. It's too bad there isn't a definitive, compromise-free player.
Now if someone could show John E. Johnson Jr. how to write a review that isn't as empty (probably moreso) as the old Stereo Review pages, well, here's an example . No comparison of units evaluated separately, were the units burned in, addition of a third party power cord would have been nice, and no mention of other equipment was used (radio shack gold interconnects, bose speakers or what???). Even my few reviews in AR are more complete (far from professional). And I know reviews are not the be-all, end-all of selecting equipment...but the one linked above says very little.
IMO.
Sorry for rambling.
-- Greg
***Better that we just say "It all looks great", eh?***It does. You're simply trying to generate controversy and position yourselves as experts.
Unfortunately, Secrets doesn't have much in the way of cachet and the shootout isn't going to help. BTW, don't try to pretend that Secrets doesn't cater to advertisers. They're all over your site and you review their gear positively.
If you're not getting paid for it, Rich, why waste your time arguing that deficiencies in DVD playback are insignificant?After all, in the 1930's some people argued that acoustic 78 rpm playback was as good sounding as people needed. Why put yourself in their position?
Rich,Show me any publication anywhere doing better objective DVD player reviews than we do.
It isn't positioning. Stacey and Don are experts, and if you had taken the time to read all of the technology articles you'd understand that they are.
I did not say we don't have advertisers, and if you'll notice Denon is one of them. We had some valid critiques of their player. It's good, but not perfect.
Of course we're such "non-experts" that Denon has licensed our content to use as dealer training.
Regards,
***Show me any publication anywhere doing better objective DVD player reviews than we do.***Most publications rightly focus on subjective impressions derived from watching movies. They're not interested in publishing irrelevant measurements. They focus on what matters.
***Stacey and Don are experts, and if you had taken the time to read all of the technology articles you'd understand that they are.***
After reading, I drew the opposite conclusion. I concluded that they don't have a clue about what's important to most buyers.
***Of course we're such "non-experts" that Denon has licensed our content to use as dealer training.***
That has nothing to do with your supposed "expertise." It has everything to do with selling more Denon equipment.
Rich,I see you work with your obfuscation tactics once again.
1) I asked you to provide a reference for anyone doing a better job of objectively reviewing players.... You responded with "Most publications rightly focus on subjective impressions derived from watching movies. They're not interested in publishing irrelevant measurements. They focus on what matters."
Every objective measurement directly correlates to video performance. When the players get individual reviews subjective impressions and objective measurements of the players video performance will be presented. Each player will have objective audio performance, and some will have objective impressions of their audio posted as well.
The methods used by Stacey and Don are clearly documented, and many of them don't require expensive test equipment, just the right DVDs.
2) I commented on Stacey and Don's expertise to which you reply with another non-sequitor "
After reading, I drew the opposite conclusion. I concluded that they don't have a clue about what's important to most buyers."
Once again, you have tried obfuscation here.
You have not provided ANY backing information, and I've provided you with plenty.
I'm kind of used to this from you though.
Each succeeding post I read of yours reminds me more and more of one of Aesop's fables, "Sour Grapes".
With respect to your Denon reply, I will say this:
Magazines do not often have technical articles purchased for use as part of dealer training.But hey, why should I continue to interrupt you.
You're on a sour grapes roll!
Regards,
, which tells me you aren't that good of an observer of video based material, or your display is insufficient to the task. So either (A)
I stick my post here in the middle of an arguement to say the info given in the articles IS INTERESTING. It may not affect the choice I have already made in a DVD player (Tecnics DVD-A10) but for current technical information, future reference and for future research, the site is pretty good.
of happy owners of the players Secrets puts down in the shootouts. That is all the proof I need for my assertions.Why don't you try proving that anything you've published matters to more than a handful of neurotic wannabe "videophiles".
Rich,A friend of mine calls this the "McDonald's argument". McDonalds sells a lot of hamburgers, and therefore it must be a great product.
It's funny that you use the term "neurotic videophiles", as the general population considers audiophilia to be equal parts neurosis and elitism.
Were someone to describe you as a "neurotic audiophile", I imagine you'd be unhappy with the characterization.
We post what we test for. We explain what it is we're looking for. Heck, we even say that if you're happy with your player, it might not be the best idea to read our report. We publish what we find, good/bad/otherwise.
As usual, though, you simply counter with inane replies lacking any substance. As that same friend I alluded to earlier would say, "What's wrong Rich, did the dog eat your science?"
Since you think it's such a disservice our readership, e-mail the editor at staff@hometheaterhifi.com and tell him how you feel. This one will undoubtedly make it into my inbox eventually when our editor forwards it out to the editorial staff.
Regards,
of happy owners of Bose speakers which you would put down without mercy if you were asked to describe them. This puts a bit of a damper on that path of logic. Certainly not everyone who has a gripe about Bose is a neurotic wannabe audiophile?
I went to log in to say it, but you said it for me......Bose speakers. The ignorance is bliss logic just doesn't work for ol' Rich, does it.
***This puts a bit of a damper on that path of logic.***No, it doesn't. If your response was at all logical, I'd comment on it. It isn't, so I won't.
Wow. Just followed this thread and I'm starting to understand this person's notoriety. I'm sorry to say my namesake seems to really be flailing here. At this point any observer can see the other guys have trounced Rich's assertions convincingly. Time to root for the underdog:Rich, for the love of all that is good and right, and in the honor of
all of us named Rich, you can do better than this can't you?:-)
Rich _H_
It doesn't look like he does much better in any of the other threads he responds to either. From what I can tell, he's just a jerk. I also think, after reviewing his remarks in this thread and elsewhere, he operates on a level of inferior capacity as compared with the rest of us. As such, calling another person an idiot may be all he is capable of, when tested.I just can't decide whether to feel sorry for him, as you would for other disabled individuals possibly deserving of charity, or, whether to be really mad at him for referring to my comments as "idiocy." Right now, it's a little of both.
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