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In Reply to: Plasma vs. Rear Projection posted by kal-el on December 25, 2001 at 16:58:44:
the posters below clearly haven't seen the latest (4th generation) Panasonics fed a true HD (1080) signal thru a Faroudja processor.direct-view CRTs and projections front or rear must be viewed straight on, and even then get all weird at the edges--they start life crippled and can only get worse
they are bulky and noisy and need very careful set-up by a technician who knows what he's doing (and you're not likely to find one), and then re-calibrated on a regular basis.
they are ugly, noisy, stupid, ancient technology.
plasma is so cool, it even looks good when it's off.
seeing is believing
don't take crap from those who've never seen it
need more proof?
try and find a new Panasonic plasma: each new shipment sells out on the day it arrives. the stores can't even keep the demo in stock. they are selling at full retail, while the everyone else has to discount 50% or more.
you did say cost was not a factor...
{ps, you'd better do your homework on Pioneer products--I've seen several negative reviews of the 720 HD Elite, and Pioneer can't sell their plasmas even when heavily discounted}
here's a link to some articles you ought to read that explain some things about HDTV, resolution, scaling, pixels, interpolation, greys and blacks, .... just read everything, and don't count on any retailer knowing what you're talking about.
I say again: seeing is believing
Follow Ups:
...it can look magical. Every other panel I've seen looks pretty bad with very obvious image artifacts that quickly drive me batty - but the Panny is a different kettle of fish. I want to see DLP and other digital projection format mature myself. For the past few years I've been planning to uypgrade my 10 year old RPTV Sony to either a front projector or the new Pioneeer 720, but after seeing the new Mistu DLP rear projector and Panny panel I've decided to wait for digital technology to mature for another 2 years or so. The Mistu does true blacks and is astoundingly sharp and detailed with none of the smearing, convergence and geometry faults that plague ALL CRT based devices. But it's still got a few problems. While it does great blacks it has some shimmering image artifacts and quite pronounced edge enhancement issues and a little moire tossed in for good measure. While I found these flaws offputting in a device I'll use for 10 years it does point the way to a next generation product that wiill cost less and perform better. In 2 years or so I expect digital projection / panel technology will completely surpass CRTs in every performance paramater and cost less to boot. So I'm gonna wait to make my move...joe
***the posters below clearly haven't seen the latest (4th generation) Panasonics fed a true HD (1080) signal thru a Faroudja processor.***Why would I want to? Plasma is a terrible value and HDTV is a non-factor for the forseeable future.
***they are bulky and noisy and need very careful set-up by a technician who knows what he's doing (and you're not likely to find one), and then re-calibrated on a regular basis.***
I've never needed a technician and couldn't be happier.
***try and find a new Panasonic plasma: each new shipment sells out on the day it arrives. the stores can't even keep the demo in stock. they are selling at full retail***
Hardly any are being manufactured, so selling out is no big deal.
---"Why would I want to? Plasma is a terrible value and HDTV is a non-factor for the forseeable future."---Interesting, Rich. Your views on plasma sound similar to most people's views of high-end audio. "Why on earth are you paying that money for those speakers. I got mine for two hundred bucks and they're great." Certainly the tube amplifiers so beloved by many audiophiles are relatively finicky, silly devices when looked from a common point of view. But they do something different, perhaps subtle to most people, but something different to the sound which is important to many people, and which makes them worth the money.
And so it goes with plasma. I find the picture has a different look - one that I find significantly more organic, fluid and natural. I love the solidity to the plasma image and the realism it adds. When I switch to looking at a CRT after watching a good plasma, I find myself quite aware of and annoyed by the jiggly, imprecise CRT picture. The imprecision of an electron beam scanning a phosphor screen, which we'd all grown so accostomed to, becomes to my eyes obviously imprecise and antiquated. It just can't match the precision of a fixed pixel design like a plasma.
Just today I brought my brother-in-law, who has a fantastic wide-screen CRT, to see a bunch of plasmas at the local high-end AV store. He was VERY skeptical about plasmas, having seen the previous generation. As we drove to the store he unfurled the long list of reasons why plasmas aren't up to CRT standards. Once in the store it didn't take long for him to agree that the plasmas looked stunning - and certainly better than any CRT we could find. We even auditioned the much heralded Loewe screens, said to have perhaps the best consumer CRT picture available. The Plasmas just stomped all over them. The store was packed on boxing day, full of high end CRTs and Rear View Projection screens, yet it was the good plasmas that had people standing in groups, slack jawed. People were *not* commenting on how slim and cute the panels were so much as they were remarking they'd never seen that level of picture quality before. I heard over and over things like "My god, it's just amazing..it's like 3d, like you're on the set..." Frankly, I've never heard those kind of comments
from customers standing in front of CRT screens.Panasonic plasma tvs, btw, have virtually licked the previous twin achilles heels of plasmas. The panasonic plasmas, especially the 42" do CRT-like black levels, as well as CRT level color scales.
Another point is this: even in TVs specs aren't everything. I've found that one tv can excell in all sorts of technical areas, pixel counts, black/grey scales, what have you. Yet another TV, which on paper does not sound as promising, can still look better. For instance, my older Panasonic Tau TV can actually look better than the newer, larger models in some instances. The newer models are HDTV ready, with all sorts of wiz-band processing added to process and "smoothen" the picture. But I find the added processing in many new tvs to add obvious and distracting artifacts. My Panasonic produces virtually no disturbing artifacts, and it's moderate size mitigates the imperfections found in many sources. So the picture actually appears sharper. I've also seen HDTV look better on a plasma screen with a lower pixel count vs. one whose pixel count actually matched HDTV specs. There are intangibles in the TV buying experience that makes seeing with one's own eyes a must. (If you are picky).
So, for me and a growing number of other movie nuts, the bigger CRTs don't have much value. They just look like a big bulky-assed TV and they do not compell me to upgrade from what I have. Whereas the better plasmas have a "picture-window" quality that makes my credit card want to jump out of my pocket.
Just adding another perspective.
Rich H.
looks more like projected film than any type of direct view set I've ever seen. I haven't seen the Panasonic, but you've given me no reason to be interested in seeing it.
Rich,I agree partially. Projected video better mimics some of the qualities of projected film. However, it still looks like projected video to me.
BTW, I work in the film industry and I see video reproduced every which way - daily. Projected on exceedingly expensive set-ups in the finest mixing theaters, on proffesional CRT monitors blah, blah, blah.
I still find the best Plasma screens to have the most bewitching image quality.
If, after all I've outlined, you aren't curious to see the best plasmas then...well...I assume you're just not the curious type:-)
Rich H.
***If, after all I've outlined, you aren't curious to see the best plasmas then...well...I assume you're just not the curious type:-)***Life is short, and I've already made my video choices for the next 10 years.
Kal-el posts an interesting question, asking for opinions and input on two distinctly different video display technologies.I've been researching a new video display for several years now, and I've gone out of my way to view every high-end video technology i can find: CRT, LCD, DLP, D-ILA, LCOS... with signals from NTSC over-the-air, VHS, SVHS, DVD, DVDp, cable, satellite, hard-drive/computer feed, off-the-air HDTV, and 720p & 1080i HDTV-sourced pro tape. I've seen the high-end front projector sourced through a custom-built dedicated Faroudja video processor--the last word in "cost-no-object" home theater (he said it was "about $150,000.00, plus installation). It was very nice, but I had no trouble leaving the room.
As Rich H says, when you go into the stores, everybody is crowded up in front (and well to the sides) of the plasma, and you can't get them to move out of the way. There's something truely magical about them. It's not reflected light, and it's not glowing phosphors....it's something...stunning. And the new ones...like the true 756p HDTV 50" Pioneer displaying a true HDTV source...
whew! it's like a hit from Oswley
no shit, you really have to see this to believe it. One third of your brain is dedicated to processing visual information. When you see a good plasma signal you don't have to be told this bit of cranial trivia--just notice your mouth agape, drool running down your shirt...just try and think while looking at a plasma display...too late, you're hooked.
I suppose that those who love watching sports would rather have a bigger screen. That's why K has to go out and see it for himself, with the source he's most likely to be watching. He has to think about what he's likely to be doing with his video display, how much room he has, and where the wires, equiptment, and power sources will be. And he has to know that he's not going to be watching anything from the sidelines--because only the totally flat plasma looks just as bright, as color-true, as crisp and clear from 80 degrees off center as it does straight on.
I'm biased man. I've seen it all and for me it's not even a close call.
Plasma. it even looks good when it's off.
Hi Pete,
you are swaying me towards the insanely expensive! Stop in the name of financial probity! My wife would kill me.
resisted as long as I could...the satellite is configured to format in 16:9 when available, and it seems that is happening more often...even on some of the new commercials.
the old 27" Proscam works fine, albeit noisy, but the presentation of widescreen (The West Wing) and letterbox films gives me a picture smaller than the vintage '70s 19" Sony Trinaton (no remote, pushbutton tuner, the set that will not die).
Applesauce Now Redux in super widescreen really was like watching a movie thru a letterbox...an actual size letterbox.
we were going to remove all the carpeting upstairs and have nice cherry floors installed (dust: read "My House is Killing Me" by Jeffery C. May), but I've spent too much time in the local Tweeters staring at the Sony plasma endlessly looping some Dutch flowers, and the 50" Pioneer endlessly looping...hell, I can't even remember what it was...the thing is like looking thru a window--no wires, no mass--it just hangs there like the view screen on Star Trek...
THAT'S IT!! it's Star Trek...that's why I can't take my eyes off of it!...I've been pre-programed to see the universe the way Captain Kirk does!!!
the horror...
the horror...
Oh man, Petew, I see from your posts that we have the same disease.
Brutal isn't it? The shaking, the sweating, the dilated, fixated pupils. Luckily, I think all we need for a full recovery is an injection of Plasma :-)Rich H.
...the dilithium krrristlez woana tek much merrr..."back and forth between the 50" true HDTV and the 42" wanna-be...
i actually drew them both on the wall yesterday...not kidding
(people think i make this stuff up--truth is, nobody would believe the truth--even i find my life incredible--i have to tone it down for my public)
she'd never go for the 50"...I've seen her angry...I've seen her back the CEO of a fortune 50 company into a corner with wrath that makes Charton Heston's Moses seem like Mr. Rogers...
so, I ordered the 42...
I'm doomed, doomed...now I know how Osama feels.
just takin' it one day at a time...
what I need now is a cloaking device
"back and forth between the 50" true HDTV and the 42" wanna-be...i actually drew them both on the wall yesterday...not kidding"
No kidding assumed. Remember, you're surrounded by fellow obsessives.
When I stare at my tv I don't even see it anymore. Instead my mind superimposes a sleek, gleaming plasma screen in it's place. Took quite a while to get my wife on board - she'd be perfectly happy with a 12" tv screen, stashed in a corner, partially hidden by a potted plant. But she recognizes the look in my eye, notices my feet aren't touching the ground whenever I view a plasma screen, and she's accepted the inevitable...at some point her tv world is going to change. Besides, I've shown her the measurements; absolutely none of the newer, bigger CRTs will fit in our nice bookcase, which currently houses our 27" TV.
"Honey, this tv is going to die, and the ONLY thing that will fit in it's place will be a plasma." She's defenseless I tell you, defenseless against my onslaught!Regarding your purchase: tough choice between the 50" and 42." I think you did good. The 42" has even better contrast than the 50."
Also, I saw the 50" yet again and noticed it suffered from phosphor latency in a way that I'd never seen from the 42." I've read that latency is one of the engineering compromises that happens when the size of a plasma increases.The 50" would be a little large for our room, not to mention that I couldn't in my wildest dreams afford it in Canadian dollars (here it actually works out to over double it's American price). Now I just have to figure out what kind of night job I can take on to buy the 42" set:-)
Please feel free to alert us once you've got your Panny up and runnin.'
Rich H.
Hello Rich,
I am but a poor slob in posession of a lowly flat 27" panasonic with the added bonus of a pincushioning display. We are surrrounded here in horse country by all manner of large screens in neighboring homes.
My wife sounds a bit like your wife, if she enjoys using a 12 inch black and white tv...a 75 pound black rotary phone..a butter churn...and the occasional thumbscrew for the misbehaving husband. The thought of a HD compatable large screen tv purchase is for her is like asking her if she would mind having the cast of Mad Max [minus Mel Gibson] stay with us for a few months so she could wait on them and clean up afterwards. Yes I have a question but this post is long enough already........Merry Christmas Jon
Argghh
-
I understand completely! Once I update my old TV, I don't intend to continue to shop and muse over everything else in the AV market.later,
Rich H.
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