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I have recently added home theatre to my 2 channel stereo. I tried to do this as inexpensively as I could but while still having decent components. I added a Technics SH-AC500D decoder an Acurus 3 channel amp (used), a set of Energy speakers for center and surrounds. Previously I ran my DVD player into my Aargon dac and listened to everything in 2 channel mode.After a dozen movies here are my impressions:
1)Surround add something to action adventure movies where there is a decent amount of info for the rear channels2)I have a negative view of the centre channel, especially on older movies or something like "Finding Forester". These movies are basically mono and I find myself switching to "Stereo" to get better imaging. I have my stereo speakers set up reasonably well and dialog appears to come from the TV in this mode. In Dobly Digital, because the centre is not of the same size and quality it sounds more constrained. I understand that most people don't have speakers set up to image well, so they need the centre channel. I would rather have spent the money on a subwoofer.
3) I can't really tell the difference between DTS and DD on the same movie. This may be the result of poor mastering and limitations in my system or simply that I am watching the movie and the sound is a much smaller part than the visuals.
On the plus side home theatre does allow for more people to be involved in the experience and as I said in the beginning it can be fun with movies where lots of stuff gets "blowed up" as John Candy used to say.
I wonder what others have experienced when moving from 2 channel to surround. Regards to all!
Follow Ups:
been there, done thatfirst let me say that if you already have nice bass response from your main stereo pair you definitely do not want to get a sub.
second: center channel is a total waste, it's most certainly a step backwards.
third: rear channels might be worth the trouble if: 1) they are small and unobtrusive, and 2) you can't tell if they are "working"
Then again, if you are a "13-year-old boy", the target market for hollywood blockbuster crap laden with car-crashes, guns, helicopters and explosions, you probably would like the incessant "boom boom boom" of a sub. And if you like to watch movies from a viewing angle of say, 60 degrees off center, and you don't have a balance control on the preamp, you probably would like a center channel.
Seriously, for almost all good films, a decent audiophile stereo pair properly set-up is as good as it gets.
Where I was: 5 Snell series D driven by Proceed Amp2 + Amp3 and Velodyne HTS18 sub for involuntary bowel movements.
Where I am: Snell series D x 2 driven by McCormack 0.5 DNA Rev. A.
the bass from the 8" acoustic suspension drivers in the Snells is much more pleasing than that from the 18" 1200watt Velo, and the imaging from the stereo pair is so good you can hardly tell it's not surround.
but, you'll probably have to go the whole way around the surround sound maze before you learn this, as I've done, twice (I'm pretty stupid).
the good news is you can pick-up all your subs and surround processors and satellites on the used market from idiots like me, who ought to know better...I'm stupid, but I'm definitely not alone.
hi
audio without surround 5.1 = vedio without colors
I don't doubt that the Velodyne HGS-18 didn't sound good. I haven't heard a sub that big ever that sounded good.My ACI Titan II (12") is another story. I wouldn't live with out, for music AND HT.
Robert
My guess is you just didn't get everything calibrated correctly.Your system will likely not provide balanced DD/DTS sound (without a center channel and downconverted to 2-channel) for more than one person who is seated in the sweet spot.
But, if you are the only person that will listen to the system, then it may very well satisfy you.
My experience is very different as I like to view movies with friends, even though I use this combo system more than 90% of the time for 2-channel music.
In my case movies with 5.1 DD or DTS sound (for more than one viewer)have center focused dialog at all seating locations and a more realistic soundscape than is possible with just a stereo pair of speakers.bstan
I came to surround from a purist audio beginning, and spend many hours tweaking and adjusting the surround gear in the video room. I've changed/upgraded equiptment several times over the years, and use acoustic treatments with SPL meters and spectrum analizers.Clearly, you've never heard the Audio Physic Virgos in a proper set-up, as a stand-alone stereo pair. I swear to God, you will piss your pants when you hear them dialed-in.
They do pin-point surround sound far better and much more realistically than any surround system I've ever heard. And yes, in answer to your question, they can place localized sound BEHIND you, as well as far to the sides, and move it all around and over your head.
Unbelievable? Yes, that's exactly my reaction every time I hear it.
Don't get me wrong, as I'm not sitting in your room listening to your system, but I've never heard a 5.1 DVD movie soundscape correctly articulated from a stereo pair of speakers in any of the highend dealer's rooms I've been in over the last 6 years. Even had the opportunity to attend a demonstration of stereo and multiple surround-sound technologies at Dolby Laboratories in San Francisco. Their listening theater was designed for the absolute best sound - cost no object. Big-Big difference between stereo and DD 5.1.My Dynaudio Contour 2.8 mains (with the Confidence series Esotar tweeter) still give me more goosebumps than most speaker setups I've ever listened to. I haven't heard any speakers that make me want to change (including a session with the Audio Physic Virgos).
Yes, I to also spent many years obsessing with stereo setups, but have finally realized a pretty good 2-channel music/HT combination.
I also spent enormous amounts of time reading about acoustic theory (F. Alton Everest) and then using ETF RTA software and a calibrated microphone to acoustically tune my listening room for both stereo and 5.1 channel HT. I do use the Audio Physic speaker setup method - speakers on one long wall (3-4' out), listening position on the other long wall (12-18" out).
bstan
ok you know of what you speak...I suppose the problem is in my head...perhaps 5.1 for film is better than a stereo pair, but for me, it's not worth the time, the trouble, and the expense. My audio closet is now full of gear (my hovercraft is full of eels).
and I concur with the other poster who says the big Velo is perhaps too much by half (I haven't located it outside the house yet, perhaps that's the proper place for it...even with the gain approaching zero the damned thing lifts me off my fat ass every time there's a bump in the scene).
I just don't like the kind of movies that need DD to be "good".
I've heard the Dynos at Soundex, and they certainly are capable of the kind of acoustic alchemy I hear with the Virgos and the Merlins. There's something about the amazing execution of a insignificant-looking tweeter that makes or breaks an audiophile transducer.
with humble respects to your opinions,
dy/dx
Most of what we discuss is based on what we like. I think it's good to express opinions and give everyone a chance to understand viewpoints from many different perspectives.One of the DVDs I played the other night, a James Bond flick, "Never Say Never Again" has the worst audio I've ever heard period. Didn't sound good in any format.
bstan
It is good to read you have the SH500 set up satisfactorily. I tried a used one a couple of years ago. It was faulty so went back for repair (bought from a dealer) but I never could coax good sound from it :-(To answer your question re surround sound - yes it can be great. However IMO DD 5.1 is over rated and Dolby Pro logic can be just about as effective. I have not decoded DTS so cannot comment on that.
I fully agree re the importance of the sub but disagree re the centre channel. For some time I regarded it as redundant but now concede that properly set up it is very important as a huge amount of energy goes through it. My observations -
* the centre channel speaker(s) must match the characteristics of the stereo pair or the sound will be disjointed and odd
* if anything, the centre channel must have a little more power reserve than the stereo amps as so much speech, action etc comes through them
Surround sound not only increases enjoyment of movies but can be used judiciously to enhance a few 2 ch recordings although not all processors can do this satisfactorily. Surround sound also increases the musical illusion on DVDs & LDs with music content - ballets, concerts, operas etc. One of these days I'll dabble in surround hi rez audio but am still fence sitting at the moment.
John
Peace at AA
My impression is properly set up stereo speakers do just a good if not better job than the centre speaker. When I switch to stereo mode, the soundstage is greater and the voices are clearer than with the centre only. Plus you are still left with the impression the voices are coming from the TV.I am coming to HT from stereo. My stereo setup is well balanced and adding HT was done as inexpensively as possible. There may be more if I had better centre and surround speakers, but the cost is more than I am willing to spend. Music still sounds better in 2 channel. At the same time I don't have the quality of setup that you do John. You have obviously spent a lot of time and money getting everything just right. I find that movies at home are still an inferior experience to what you get in a top rate movie theatre.
Estes,Center channel speaker quality is an issue, but see my other response to your setup and calibration issues.
I'm able to get outstanding sound from my HT (with the SH500) that bests any local movie theater I go to, even an IMAX theater I was in recently.
So don't sell your system short just yet, try some actual calibration efforts and then let us know how it went.
bstan
You didn't like the IMAX?!?! Aside from the picture quality that kills ANY home theatre setup, I have found the sound to be better than the typical movie house. Heck the best Rolling Stones concert I have been too was in an Imax theatre ;-)That said, I have been to movie theatres in numerous cities and I have found great variability. At their very best the movie palaces of old with 70mm screens are truly wonderful. Unfortunately few of those remain and their numbers are decreasing.
Agreed, picture quality was outstanding at all three IMAX theaters I've been to.The San Jose IMAX does not have good sound, the Luxor in Las Vegas does have great sound (picture and ambience are the best I've ever experienced), and all the theaters I've been to in Silicon Valley have terrible sound.
An interesting aside, the Luxor's IMAX has automated metal seat bars that lock you in your seat, because they don't want the realism to knock you out of your seat.
No matter the format, DD5.1 or DTS, I find most theaters just don't get the calibration right and/or play the volume at really extreme levels (depends on how crowded the theater is).
bstan
When viewing many DVDs, I have my volume set somewhere between -6dB and 0dB for the level of sound I'm projecting into my listening environment, a medium-large room (19' x13' x8-12').I didn't want you to think I don't appreciate what the director has produced. Some movies also supply higher quality sound (less soundstage voiceovers) and actually sound more fluid.
bstan
Hi bstan: Hope you are having a happy New Year! Yes sound quality does vary alot as does the picture quality. I have had similar experiences as yours in Imax theatres. I find that I complain a lot more than I used to of out of focus movies, etc. The same applies to the mastering process for DVDs, some are so poor you can hardly hear what is being said or are very fuzzy. Levels are all over the map. Yet there is some great stuff that I can watch dozens of times (Rio Bravo and Run Silent, Run Deep come to mind). Both were done before fancy electronics took over. Simplier is sometimes better.
A couple items are important when setting up this system (I also own an SH500 for the last 3 years, but my focus is 90/10 music/HT).What is the -3dB level spec for the bass output of your mains?
1) Since you didn't have a sub, did you set SUB=NO in the speaker setup menu? Main speakers to Large? Center to Small? Surrounds to Small?
2) After measuring speaker distances from each speaker to your listening position, did you set the speaker delay for center and surround speakers? This is especially critical for the center speaker to work correctly.
3) When setting up the speakers and speaker settings on the SH500, did you use an SPL meter to calibrate equal SPL output from each speaker at the listening position?
I found getting everything calibrated correctly was absolutely essential before listening criticaly to surround sound.I also found a quantum leap in quality after adding a subwoofer, although I didn't connect it to the processor's sub out.
see my profile for equipment connections.
bstan
To answer your questions:1) Front and rears set to large, centre to small. The Technics manual states that any speaker that goes below 100 hz should be set to "large". The sub is set to no.
2) Yes I set the delay and have tried two different settings to see if it makes any difference.
3) No I have not used an SPL meter. This is an issue. But what I find I like the least is the center speaker, on "talking" type movies. I find that set in stereo mode the effect is more natural. Of course my fronts are of much better quality than the centre or surrounds.
I am considering getting rid of the centre and buying a sub-woofer instead.
Estes,I must say the Radio Shack SPL meter for $39 is absolutely essential(indispensable) for proper speaker 5.1 setup.
Without it there is no hope you will get any kind of proper sound from a 5.1 speaker system.
You should also pick up one of the following calibration DVDs to use with the SPL meter:
1) Video Essentials DVD
2) AVIA DVDOnly then can you properly adjust the acoustic soundscape of DD/DTS 5.1 to your specfic speakers, room, and listening position.
Without these tools there are just too many variables you won't be able to get correctly synchronized just by ear.
Your center channel may or may not be well matched to your stereo pair, but you will never know until it gets correctly calibrated.
You can also turn the center speaker OFF in the speaker setup menu for SH500 by the way (and you can turn it ON/OFF for individual movies if you want).
Good luck and let me know how it goes.bstan
To clarify a couple of points: On some movies I do defeat the centre channel. I also have the Video Essentials disc. I have found it quite helpful in setting up the TV. I am digging around for an SPL meter.The main point is that on mono material the processor feeds everything to the centre channel. As a result, I believe that with well setup stereo speakers you can do without the expense and complexity of the centre speaker. On a good stereo setup mono will appear to come from the between the loudspeakers. Thus why bother with the centre channel. Let's face it, aside from action/adventure/war movies, a lot of films focus on dialogue which is mono. As a result there is little or nothing that comes from the other 4 speakers in the system. That begs the question, Why are they there? Clearly, movie transfer to DVD has a ways to come and on the right movies there is info on the other channels. I think it comes down to the type of movies that you like to watch. With certian types go for full blown hometheatre, but if you enjoy mainly drama, then HT is likely overkill.
Actually I pick up lots of spatial cues from 5 channel movie surround in lots of pictures that are not action/adventures.God examplesof 3D spatial cues include voices and music in various building sizes, or outside. Also, the way a sound intentionally pans across the soundstage (especially if it goes crosswise front to back).
The best realistic 3D example (DTS) I've experienced in my home relates to a previous life experience I had in Vietnam.
In the movie "Dances with Wolves" there is a scene where Kevin Kostner is being fired upon in the Civil War, where a bullet whizzes by narrowly missing his head (maybe 6" to a foot). This spatial cue was a front to back soundstage pan. My brain has that sound burned into it's memory and when I experienced that sound in the movie, my body instinctively ducked it was so real.
bstan
I went with a couple of veterans to see Saving Private Ryan. Their reaction to the beach landing was somewhat similar to yours.
Congrat on your new addition.
Yup, I used to have surround system. My first impression was, like you said, nice and overwhelming effect from rear speakers. I did not much care for the center channel, either. About DD and DTS, it was for me slighter than people claimed. The use of sub was a major hit. It was like being in a movie theater, unless your family or neighbor complains. I did a lot of experiment as to the position of speakers, as well as the "distance" adjustment of surround processor for optimum/ maximum surround effect. It was really fun! I showed off the system to many friends, family and relatives with "loud blowing up" DVDs such as Apollo 13 and Jurassic Park, etc. Enjoy!But, you know, as time goes by, my interest shifted to stereo system and now my HT set up is gone (yup, mankind need cash and space!)...
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