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In Reply to: Re: First off, thanks for at least keeping part of YOUR vitriol in control posted by tinear on October 13, 2006 at 16:53:35:
"You mistake "purpose" of Nuremberg to the principle which it established: a combatant may not commit crimes against civilians or enemy soldiers and claim they were ordered to do so and therefore were only following orders."You can read, but not analyze. Nuremberg did not estalbish that a combatant may not commit crimes against civilians claiming they were ordered to do so any more than the state statute of fantasy land where you live estalblished that murder is wrong.
"You seem unable to limit your arguments to germane issues. Uniforms, Nazis, etc. are not pertinent: btw, soldiers at any level found to have worked at the concentration camps WERE prosecuted."
Once again, you are factually incorrect. The IMT tribunal (International Military Tribunal) tried 22 German war criminals, and Americans another 12 under the rubric of the IMT. They did not prosecute every guard at every concentration camp. Try again.
"The link here to our argument is that American soldiers were in uniform and carried out much violence against civilian personnel, you may wish to study up on the Phoenix program."
No doubt that American soldiers committed war crimes, I never insinuated otherwise, and should be punished accordingly. The problem is that you indict every member of the service because they served based upon the actions of a few bad soldiers. That is where we depart.
"Of course Allied forces could have been tried under Nuremberg rules, too, but you know the saying about winners in war, right? (Your point about civilians being tried makes what point? Duh.)."
Maybe under the Nuremberg "rules", but not at Nuremberg, because, as you are probably aware, Nuremberg was specifically chartered to punish Nazi War Criminals. Not allied soldiers.
"Are you conscious of the fact that once you get your butt shot off on one of your major points you shift to another, unaware of the sudden breeze?"
I have never had my butt shot off. Have you? May explain a lot, as I think most of your brain is located in your posterior.
"Anyhow, if you don't know the difference between killers and murderers you should study the terms: they are not interchangeable."
I know the legal difference. Killing defenseless women and children is murder, which is how you characterized the actions of the American Soldier in Vietnam. Perhaps you can finally bring yourself to call the soldiers what you have been describing their actions to be, but have been unwilling to label. By your own description, the men who bombed Berlin would also be murderers.
"I told you I've spoken of the issues with Vietnam era vets, that personally I know many (it is my generation, after all) and some went to my military high school with me, and that I spoke to many when I ran a homeless shelter."
Again, you read but do not understand. Have you called them baby killers? Not merely asked them whether they want bread with their soup.
"To return for a moment: you don't think SPR is anti-war?"
Man, you really are daft. Please re-read. I specifically wrote that I thought SPR was the greatest anti-war film, for the reasons I wrote. Time to check the meds.
"Of course, there is a vast difference between WWII and Vietnam: when one is attacked by an enemy that has murdered hundreds of thousands"
This is choice. Ever seen Animal House? Belushi screems "When the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?" Um, Tin, apparently your knowledge of history is as vast as your knowledge of Architectects. The Germans never attacked the U.S., and hundreds of thousands did not die at Pearl Harbor. If I need a mental image of you, I guess I need only watch Animal House. (I hope you got better grades)
"decide to intervene in a (your assertion) civil war between two factions that had been at war for decades and that had just thrown out its colonial power (France; you do know it was known as Indo-China, right?)"
Here is what happened. North and South Vietnam, agreed that they would have a nationwide vote in 1956. Previously France provided military and economic help to Vietnam. South Vietnam was formed from the former French compatriots. When it became evident that South Vietnam would loose the nationwide vote, they decided that they would not acquiesce ot the vote. France decided (probably prudently) that they were not willing to expend the troops necessary to defend South Vietnam. The U.S. then entered the fray for the French. committing troops in 1965, advisors in 1959.
When Diem canceled elections, North Vietnam began forming and funding the nice guys now known as the Vietcong to bring down the South Vietnamese government. Rather than attempt a political solution, using such things as world pressure, which we are seeing now with Korea, North Vietnam attempted a military solution. Oddly (or perhaps not) enough, you have no critism for North Vietnam for not seeking a diplomatic solution.
"INVARIABLY ends up making heroes of the killers: in the viewers' eyes."
You still have yet to provide the difference, in your estimation, between killers and murderers. Perhaps another try. The second part of your sentence displays your arrogance. You assume that because you interpreted a scene or a movie a certain way, then most of the other viewer's did so as well. I never took from the film that the Americans, on the whole, were heroes, or that the war was just. Perhaps you believe that unless the film depicts Vietnamese as you would like them depicted it there, de facto, means that the Americans are protrayed as heroes. That is your hang up, not the film's.
"One HAS to hope for his success if for no other reason to keep the film "going."
Completely incorrect. It could be a matter of not whether he will unsuccessful, but when. The WHEN is what keeps the film going, not the WHETHER. Which is why most bad guys die at the end of the film. You confuse success with morality.
"Anyhow, the Vietnamese largely are NOT portrayed."
Because, as nother poster accurately pointed out, it is not a Vietnam film per se, but only uses it as a backdrop, for the same reason that SPR could have taken place during the Revolutionary War, the Civil War, the Korean War, or the Vietnamese War. But then, that salient fact does not comport with your political views.
"You seem unable to see the moral in-equivalency of German soldiers, Vietnamese soldiers."
You really are a dolt. Care to specify?
"Vietnamese were fighting to determine the fate of THEIR country."
South or North? They were two countries, both sovereign. Who fired first? Much like North and South Ireland. East and West Germany. North and South Korea. They all co-exist, to degrees, somewhat peacefully. North Vietnam decided a military solution was appropriate, rather than maintain two sovereign nations, and freely allowing people to decide on which side they wanted to live. Hardly commendable and deserving of accolades.
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Follow Ups
- Re: First off, thanks for at least keeping part of YOUR vitriol in control - jamesgarvin 08:53:44 10/16/06 (0)
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