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In Reply to: Re: Huh? posted by Bulkington on March 16, 2005 at 13:40:09:
"I don't consider myself high-brow; what I identified as middle-brow were films with a set of cynical features designed, or whose unwitting function is, to appeal to the insecurities, aspirations, and sense of cultural obligations certain people have regarding art."Well, that is a conclusion. The meat on the plate is providing specific examples in the film that demonstrate your argument. That is called analysis. You appear to regard films as something more than what they are, and at the end of the day, they are really entertainment. A method for the storyteller to tell a story. Two hundred years ago, the same thing was accomplished exclusively by books, music, or stories passed from generation to generation. If you learn something, that is a bonus. And anyone who watches a movie to learn about life, art, or anything else, needs to get out of the house. Your arrogance is in assuming that people who watch the film are doing so to learn. If you left your ivory tower, you would find that not to be the case.
What insecurities are you referring to? Aspirations? Cultural obligations? Films are designed to entertain. Some people, present company included, feel some need to seek more than entertainment in the films they watch. They seem to feel that if the film does nothing more than entertain, then it lacking in some way. This is arrogance because you define the intrinsic value of something according to your own value system, and insult those who enjoy a film for it's simple entertainment or story telling. 'This film is designed for you dolts to feel like to are actually attuned to the artistic world of me and my class.' Well, no, a, well, we just thought it was good entertainment, not a mechanism to change the world, or to feel smart, or "artsy." Or to be educated.
"You're being ironic or anti-intellectual (an unintended irony in your intellectual stance here) or both, since otherwise being smart (and intelligent!) wouldn't be taken as some kind of handicap; and in generalizing that such a person can't enjoy anything enjoyed by the masses you are as snide as you presume your strawman to be."
You miss my point. It is not to insult intelligent people. Or smart people. I never wrote that those things were a handicap. Well, not always. And cetainly, smart and intelligent people can enjoy things that the masses enjoy. My point was that there are a group of people that think because they are smart and intelligent, they cannot enjoy what the masses enjoy, because if the masses enjoy something, and they are not as smart, it must be without merit. Your original post, by implication, argues that you have "found" the insult which the film perpetrates against the viewers, leading them to believe that they are witnessing art. The real insult is that you believe that the common viewer not capable of that which you are capable. Perhaps the average viewer looks at Mystic River an entertainment, and not some form of high art. Perhaps the average viewer understands that that those are the terms under which the film was made. Is it barely possible that the average viewer understands the purpose of the film, and what it seeks to accomplish, whereas you, with your notion that films must be "art", have missed. Alas, your arrogance prevents you from entertaining that possibility.
Intelligence and being smart can be a handicap if you allow those things to cloud the view. Placing more significance in a film than is intended. I remember a music course in college when the instructor played a portion of a symphony (time does not permit me to remember the title), and analyzed it according to the "symetry", or some other nonsense. I am thinking, just listen to the freakin' beauty. He was so smart, he never listened to what the composer intended because he was too busy analysing.
"As I've defined it above, indeed I don't think anyone with developed taste can enjoy such entertainment."
Well, the first thing you have to do is define middle-brown entertainment. Which, if I understand your posts, Mystic River, in your opinion, qualifies, because it attempts to acheive some fraud on the filmgoer. You failed to see the purpose of the film, but rather judged it based upon your erroneous understanding. The purpose of the film is merely to entertain, and tell a story, nothing more, nothing less, then your definition is incorrect. And what is developed taste? Who defined that term? You? At least have the backbone to admit that you are arrogant and/or a snob.
"It's the desire, the sense of social obligation, of people to make themselves feel educated in place of the desire to be educated or always learning that bothers me. And it's "art" that makes people feel educated that bugs me more for encouraging what I deplore."
I know what you mean here, but am not sure how that applies to Mystic River. You seem to be of the opinion that being educated in the things that you think are important is of great importance. How does "art" make people feel educated. When Rembrandt was painting, who was he trying to educate? When Bach was composing, who was he trying to educate? When Shakespeare was writing, who was he trying to educate? Even with your blinders on, do you really think that Eastwood was trying to create some "art", similar to these gentlemen?
This notion that one must have some level of education to appreciate "art", and that "art" educates is, again, elitist pap. I have never heard an actual creator utter such statements. You know, the person who was actually involved in the creation, to which you fawn. It is always the patron, the person who sat on the sideline. Some patrons have some need to separate themselves from the herd. You do not have the education to appreciate our art. We define the value of your "art" by our education. And, as a bonus, we define your entertainment according to our notion of art.
"Yeah, dude. I bet you could have done his shit with, like, your eyes closed when you were in diapers.
Elitism sucks unless it's your own. Now who's the arbiter of taste?"
The last deperate attempt: rewrite what I actually wrote. I never wrote that Pollock was without talent. Or that I could have done his "shit" (I see your vocabulary is middle-brow) when I was in diapers. I believe he had talent. I think that lifetime minor league baseball players have talent. I could never play minor league baseball. But I do not try to convince myself, or others, that a lifetime minor league baseball player can play in the major leagues. Pollock started out as a traditional artist. What prices do those paintings command? How many of them are in museums? He had talent, but he was a minor league baseball player. The fact that he failed as a traditional painter is not my opinion. But fact.
"There's truth here--basketball is all the more ironic for being as expensive as it is to attend while also appealing so strongly to poor black urban youth. Baseball is more solidly populist; basketball tries to get it both ways by being glamorous and elite and gheto at once."
Your elitism is fully evident here. Basketball is popular in the inner city NOT because of the N.B.A. It is popular in the inner city because it requires no more equipment than a ball. And you can play it by yourself, with two people, three people, etc. Can't do that with baseball or football. But then, inner city youth are not educated to appreciate art, so why bother with them? Those dolts.
"The club? If you have to ask you can't join. . . ."
I never asked to join. But thanks, if I need to feel self-important, I know where to go.
"As for a specific argument against the film, I'll have to admit, it's not so fresh now. Maybe later."
Not a surprise. Much easier to state conclusions and generalize. Ask for particulars, well, I'll get back to you. MESSAGE: DO NOT LET FACTS GET IN THE WAY OF YOUR OPINION. The only thing that is important is if Eastwood is popular, well, then bash him.
"But in response to your "despite its working class surroundings" jab: are you actually working class? Do you know anyone who might be so classed?"
Well, I must admit that I am not working class. And the Federal Government, for what that is worth, would not consider me working class. My professional colleagues are not working class, but most, though not all, of my social contacts are.
"Because Mystic River was anything but: its depiction of working class life, its dialogue, its presentation of values, was so this-is-what-they're-like. That's partly what's so middle-brow about it: it convinces the suburban middle class that they've somehow been offered a window into this rough, streetwise world. It's hollow melodramtic bullshit."
Really? Please provide me your curriculum vitae of the streetwise world. You do not know why inner city kids play basketball, so I suspect that your streetwise credentials are probably lacking. Do you know if Eastwood visited the locations he filmed? Talked with people there? Studied anyone?
Presentation of values? Such as? Bacon has a daughter and estranged wife that he cares about. Penn loves his family, particularly his daughter, and works hard. Robbins was raped and has experienced torment since that day. Okay, which of those values is out of place in the "streetwise" world? Or are they only interested in fighting, drugs, promiscuous sex?
Your arrogance suggests to you, and in turn, to everyone else, that the purpose for the film was to provide a "window" into the streetwise world. That is not the purpose of the film. It is not a documentary. The film could just as easily taken place in silicon valley. The purpose of the film is to entertain. To tell a story. The backdrop is a working class neighborhood. That does not mean that Eastwood is trying to provide you a window into a working class neighborhood anymore than he was providing a window into the old west in Unforgiven, or he was providing a window into space in Space Cowboys. Instead of looking at a film for what you THINK it is trying to accomplish, take off the blinders to look to what it is really trying to accomplish.
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Follow Ups
- Re: Huh? - jamesgarvin 15:41:28 03/16/05 (1)
- Re: Huh? - Bulkington 06:51:14 03/17/05 (0)
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