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In Reply to: Re: Ah, always a pound where a pence would do. You need to look up posted by jamesgarvin on February 21, 2007 at 09:33:39:
We are less interested in King Lear than the Elizabethans because we no longer are the colony of a monarchy?
Beauty is "topical."
It is eternal.
You nicely switched from "torture" to "murder."
James, you are so innocent.
How many have died for our goals in Iraq which, obviously, you believe are about spreading democracy and not empire.
Vietnam?
C. America?
S. America?
School of the Americas.
A torture training facility at Ft. Benning, since renamed and, perhaps, relocated.
We have a systematized torture program.
But we are better than the Nazis, oh yes.
Prouder?
Follow Ups:
"How many have died for our goals in Iraq which, obviously, you believe are about spreading democracy and not empire."Goals in Iraq about spreading democracy? I have no doubt that there are many reasons for us being in Iraq, probably none I agree with. I accept that democracy is probably one reason. William Jefferson Clinton, at the beginning of the Iraq war, was queried as to whether the war in Iraq is "worth" the loss of life. His reply was that if a strong democratic socity rises from the ashes, then the war would probably be worth the costs. I happen to agree with this position, even if I disagree with going in the first place. The same as if someone bet their life savings in Vegas, rolled the dice, and happened to win. I would probably have told them to keep their money in the bank, but since they won, I am happy for them.
Incidentally, according to Alexander Haig in an interview I watched on C-Span, the so called neo-cons are really democrats. He told how he was forced to hire Wolfowitz while in the Reagan administration, and cautioned Reagan that Wolfowitz, et al, we former democrats that lost power in their party when it moved to the left. They believed that the U.S. could force democracy at the tip of a gun. In short, this is the same philosophy that guided Democrats until the Iraq war.
As misguided as I think they are, the point is that I really do believe that Rumsfeld, Chaney, Wolfowitz and company believe that exporting democracy is possible. I think they believe this is a good thing, and Clinton would seem to agree, if the goal is accomplished. If the gamble pays off, can there be any doubt that a democratic Iraq, in which minority rights are respected, is better than under Hussein?
This is distinctly different than Nazi Germany, in which the Nazis were not pretending to better the situation of the citizens of Germany and the countries it conquered. They never pretended to be anything except eliminating those they deemed impure.
Define torture. Torture is different things to different people. Maybe you feel that keeping people in dark rooms is torture. Maybe it takes more, such as putting people in gas chambers until they have no breath. When the government of my neighbors and friends of color are being rounded up, perhaps I'll agree with you.
You have argued in the past that the rest of the world is better educated. Then why do more people from those better educated countries typically want to come here, rather than the myriad of other choices they have? Because, for the faults, it is still better here than in any other country. There is not another country in this world in which a person born into poverty, or of color, can raise as high in society and as quickly as in the U.S. Try being of poor and color in Great Britain. Why? Because out government, as imperfect as it is, is still better than any other at guaranteeing certain rights. If some misguided soles want to share some of those rights with others around world, I hardly equate that to murdering countless millions of Jews, Homosexuals, etc.
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