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Re: I don't get your analogy

Posted by Analog Scott (A) on June 28, 2005 at 11:25:48

In Reply to: Re: I don't get your analogy posted by Bulkington on June 28, 2005 at 07:18:42:

Victor's critism of LotR has been nothing more than calling it kaka. So I can't say that it is or is not due to the genre or the movie. I'm still waiting for Victor to name an epic fantasy that he likes.
Like what other epic fantasy might that be? If there were no other epic fantasy he liked, what would that prove?

"There are no epic fantasy films I like."

What a surprise that is.

" I think they're bad films."

I think you just don't like the genre and are confusing your taste with some fundimental truism about films.

" I think people apologize for their badness on generic grounds when there's no generic necessity to film them the way they're filmed."

Could you possibly paint your biases with a larger brush? I doubt it. As if every fantasy epic has been filmed the same way. You just look ignorant when you say things like this.

" Critics who gave the LoTR films praise or even a pass by and large abandoned the kind of critical standards to which they hold other films."

I see they all told you this in confidence or you are just a great mind reader?

Why? The soft bigotry of low expectation.

cough (bullshit)

Most people assume genre fantasy is bad and therefore don't expect much out of it. "For epic fantasy, this is great!" Back-handed praise.

Speak for yourself.

What was it about how it was filmed that makes you think that?

Do a search for previous posts of mine on this topic.

I have. I see nothing more substantial than the drival you have posted on this thread. Get back to me when you can muster a post of substance on the subject.

If that doesn't suffice (it's been a while, and my memory's conflating what I've written here and in private exchanges), lemme know and maybe I'll get back to you. I don't have any great stake in writing a monograph on the cinematic offenses of the LoTR, but a monograph on that subject could very easily be written.

Go for it. So far the name calling has been most unimpressive.

"I grew up with Tolkien, and while I still wax nostalgic over his work, I don't regard it as high literary art, though I do regard Middle Earth to be a great fiction."

That makes you one of many millions. But the vast majority of those many millions, myself included< don't share your opinion of the films.

And a million people can't be wrong.

Those millions on this subject? Most unlikely.

Can you offer a better defense of the film than recourse to its popularity?

I think in this case it is a very strong argument. Both the masses and the hard core fans and the critics in general have all praised this movie. What makes you smarter than all of them? There does come a point where predominate genreal opinions do have weight. Or maybe everybody is wrong about Shakespeare and DiVinci as well. In the face of such all encompasing praie the onus is on you to offer something of substance that uggests the masses, the hard core fans and the crittics are all wrong. Good luck.

" What have you offered in the way of analysis that's any more substantial than Victor's "kaka"?"

Take your own advise and do a search. Are you really hard up for such comentary?

" I don't, therefore, hold the original sacrosanct--in general, I understand that the translation of a literary work to film requires processes of restructuring, compression, and re-imagination, and all with an artistic integrity on the part of the translating filmmaker. In the adaptation of a novel to film, the film should be a free adaptation. Neither film nor novel should have a parasitic relationship to the other. In the end, the film should be judged on the extent to which it's a good film, not on the extent to which it was faithful to its source."

If it is faithful to the source and the source is a good one it stands to reason that the film will likely also be good. History has supported this basic logic.

That makes no sense whatsoever.

Well if basic deductive reasoning doesn't work for you i don't really know where to go from there. Further, if you are willing to ignore the history of films adapted from books what is the point in discussing the issue with you?

It does not follow that faithfulness to a "good" source will result in a "good" adaptation.

It certainly does follow that the results are "likely" to be good.

A bad director is perfectly capable of botching a good script just as a good director can salvage a bad one.

You mean I have to state the obvious that a good movie requires skill on the part of the film makers?

And Jackson's faithfulness to Tolkien is only superficial at best.

Fine, defend the claim.

"That said, the list of Jackson's departures in content and style, not to mention his interpolations, had the effect of making me realize that Tolkien was a much more accomplished story teller than I'd given him credit for. I think Tolkien has ample cause to be rolling in his grave because of those films, though maybe he's resting well knowing how many readers were sent to his novels after viewing them."

Among the millions of fans of his books you are in the vast minority when it comes to the film. That doesn't make you wrong but it certainly makes you less right in a way. Think for a moment what it would have meant had Jackson made a movie you liked but the vast majority of Tolkien fans didn't.

Again, have you an argument outside of lazy populism?

The argument Works if you understand math. Reconsider the above question again for amoment and consider the fact that you much less any individual is a reference absolute excellence in the arts. There is something to the fact that the numbers in all catagories of filmgoers have overwehlmingly praised this movie. It isn't just the populus aproval hear. It is the aproval of the hard core fans, the critics and the real world film makers you are disagreeing with. Like I said, it doesn't make yo wrong but it does suggest that you are outside the bounds and are likely basing your opinions on personal biases and not common biases.

"It doesn't make me less right in any way whatsoever."

It does, you just ned to consider the sources of praise, all of them. The actual content of tht praise as well.

" Had Jackson made a film I liked and that a majority of Tolkien fans did not it would only prove, as their liking what in fact he did make proves, their poor reading of Tolkien, the poverty of their imaginations, and their complete lack of reflection upon the expressive possibilities of film."

oh balony. Get over yourself dude. When you make a film that proves your objetive superiority to all the critics, fans and real film makers that praised this film get back to me. Till then enjoy your island soap box along with all the other dime a dozen cynics.

" I think most Tolkien fans who creamed themselves over Jackson's films did so primarily because they felt themselves somehow affirmed by them: "See, these books I've been charishing? They're the real thing, man! Cultural stamp of approval!" Whatever."

More mind reading...whatever

"Does that bug you? Deal with it."

i am dealing with it. Swatting flies is a guilty pleasure of mine.

" My opinions are not up for vote by the masses."

So long as you get that they are personal opinions. you seem to think they are objective truths. They are not.

" I would not think very highly of anyone whose were."

I have news for you pal, in the world of film making film makes do just that every time they produce a movie. Deal with it.

"Seriously, though. I've seen no effort on the part of LoTR defenders here to defend the film as a film."

What's to defend. Calling it kaka is a comentary that is completely devoid of substance. If somebody were to make specific points on substance I'd be happy to take them on if I disagreed with them.

Fair enough, I suppose. I also think it a pretty basic critical exercise to offer an explanation as to why you like something,

Fair enough. I will do so.

why it works for you. We expect as much from positive as from negative reviews, but of course tend to let it slide when the pronouncement is in accordance with our own. Those who agree with Victor that the films are kaka would probably regard elaboration tedious and superfluous; those who don't agree want an explanation. It's the same with those who agree they're good, though often such people like to have conversations about what it is they thought was good. I've not seen that here, however.

" "Oh, Victor doesn't like orcs on wargs!--or was it goblins? [That's the lingo, Victor, for 'animal-looking "people" riding wild boars-like "horses"'] He just doesn't get it!" Well, I have nothing against that sort of thing per se and I thought that whole sequence of the film to be outragiously stupid."

OK so you have called it a name. Now tell us why it was stupid. Then we will have something to talk about.

A laughably fake CGI action squence (that, like all such sequences in the film, was so over-the-top in a Jerry Bruckheimerish way as to divest the action of any genuine sense of danger) patently contrived to separate Aragorn from the group in order to elaborate on the silly, interpolated Aragorn/Arwen (is that her name?) story line, culminating with one of those aweful, gozzy, breathy, Liv Tyler sequences. What the hell's to like about that--especially as a Tolkien fan?

OK your basic argument is that it wasn't ralistic? It was over the top? yeah it was. Epic stories of epic heroes traditionally include super human acts of strength, speed, skill and bravery. It is part of the fantasy. It is the same thing that makes stories told around the camp fire interesting to some of us. If you find it distasteful to allow for such things in film making that is a mattr of personal tatse. Most people through out the ages have enjoyed epic tales of heroes who are above and beyond the real limits of human beings. I know some very smart people who loe film and literature but will not alow themselves this sort of suspension of disbelief. That is fine but it is again a matter of personal tatse. As for the CGI that is a problem but not a movie killer for me. By and large the visual efects were remarkably excellent but of course some things work better than others. Such is the nature of the beast. But hey, do you hate the original King Kong because th effects sucked? Do you throw the baby out with the bathwater and hate film for some bad visuals even though there were so many wonderful ones? I don't.

"I could go on and on and on. I think I have here before."

I hope your previous comentaries had more substance than "it was stupid."

Why don't you take a look?

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